Listen in with student debt experts and Board Member Drs. Tony Bartels and Rebecca Mears in this next installment of our Student Debt Series. In this episode we have three major topics we’re addressing: 1) a new challenge for the almost new grads 2) New Grad Playbook webinar and 3) the latest student loan updates.
As always, we want to hear from YOU. Please share your thoughts by sending an email or joining the conversation.
GUEST BIOS:
Dr. Tony Bartels
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA graduated in 2012 from the Colorado State University combined MBA/DVM program and is a VIN Foundation Board Member and Student Debt Expert, and an employee of the Veterinary Information Network (VIN). He and his wife, a small-animal internal medicine specialist practicing in Denver, have more than $400,000 in veterinary-school debt that they manage using federal income-driven repayment plans. By necessity (and now obsession), his professional activities include researching and speaking on veterinary-student debt, providing guidance to colleagues on loan-repayment strategies and contributing to VIN Foundation resources. Beyond debt, his professional interests include small- and exotic-animal practice. When he’s not staring holes into his colleagues’ student-loan data, Tony enjoys fly fishing, ice hockey, camping and exploring Colorado with his wife, Audra, daughter, Lucy, and their two rescued canines, Addi and Maggie.
Dr. Rebecca Mears
Rebecca Mears, DVM is from Lexington, KY, and a graduate of University of Georgia’s College of Veterinary Medicine. Rebecca started her career as an equine general practitioner and is an active AAEP member, currently serving as a member of the AAEP DEI Committee. Her interest in student debt education began with keeping her own education costs lower and grew from there. This was supported by her involvement in the Veterinary Business Management Association (VBMA), which she now gives back to as a National Advisor. In her time away from veterinary medicine, she can be found obsessing over plants and hosting impromptu dance parties. She is passionate about giving back to the profession and improving the lives of veterinarians, pre-vet and vet students.
LINKS AND INFORMATION:
VIN Foundation Student Debt Center
VIN Foundation GIVE page to support these programs & tools
May 7th webinar – New Graduate Student Loan Playbook
VIN Foundation Blog, Related Student Debt Blog posts:
Personalized student loan Help from VIN and VIN Foundation
Income-Driven Repayment Plan Discretionary income calculations, WikiDebt
New Grad Student Loan Repayment Playbook
Federal Student Aid Data, Consolidation, and Repayment Applications
One-time Forgiveness Count Adjustment
Federal Student Loan Servicers
Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF)
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Getting into repayment is probably the most challenging aspect of repayment. It’s where a lot of things have an opportunity to go wrong and kind of start you on a path that might end up costing you more in the long run or haVINg you spend more time in repayment than you should have to. So this is a really critical period.
Meet the Hosts and Podcast Overview
Jordan Benshea: That is student debt expert and VIN Foundation Board Member Dr. Tony Bartels with Dr. Rebecca Mears, and this is the VIN Foundation’s Veterinary Pulse Podcast special student debt series. I’m Jordan Benshea, Executive Director of the VIN Foundation. Join me as I talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics and share stories, stories that connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community. This podcast is made possible by individuals like you who donate to the VIN Foundation. Thank you. Please check the episode notes for bios, links, and information mentioned. Welcome everyone.
Exciting Updates and Opportunities
Jordan Benshea: We are back here again with our VIN Foundation student debt education team members, doctors Tony Bartels and Rebecca Mears, and we are here to cover all things student loan. We have new news, new information, and even some opportunities for some fun prizes, because why not? Welcome Tony and Becca.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Thank you. I mean, it must be time to talk about student loans again, obviously. It’s only been what, a week, a month?
Jordan Benshea: Yeah. I mean, we’re talking about it every day. We’re only making them listen or encouraging them to listen.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: I dream about student loans. I don’t know what you all are talking about.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: I do not, so.
Jordan Benshea: I think they’re not dreams, they’re nightmares.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Exactly, they’re more nightmares lately.
The Debt Repayment Prep Challenge
Jordan Benshea: As we all know, there have been many changes in the student loan landscape over the last few years and in today’s episode we’re going to be covering three major topics. The first is a new challenge we have for almost new grads. The second is an upcoming webinar, and the third is the latest news and information. Let’s not waste any time and let’s dive right in. So, Tony, Becca, will you two share about this latest challenge opportunity we have?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Sure. Some of you might remember last semester we did what we called the Borrow Better Challenge that we ran for veterinary students highlighting specific areas about how to borrow better for your veterinary education and set yourself up for success in repayment. That last semester challenge was well participated and really popular and at the end of it we did a webinar and gave out some prizes to those folks who participated, so we figured we’d do it again this semester, but focus it more on preparing for repayment. So we’re calling it the Debt Prep Repayment Challenge, and it’s targeted mostly for those folks that are graduating in 2025. At the end of this particular challenge, we’ll also do a webinar, and that webinar will be our new grad playbook webinar.
Jordan Benshea: This Debt Repayment Prep Challenge is really for two different audiences, so soon to be new grads and not quite new grads. What’s the difference between if somebody’s a class of 2027 versus a class of 2025, do we want them both to participate?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah. I mean, we can always learn from each other. But, as quickly as things have been changing on the student debt front lately, there’s a really good chance that the topics we cover in terms of how best to enter repayment for the 2025 graduating class may be a little different in 2026 and 2027. So there are certain aspects and the process for preparing and how to start thinking about repayment that will be similar, but the logistics and specifics will probably be a little bit different. So, anybody’s welcome to participate, but we’re going to focus it specifically for those folks that are graduating in 2025, just so we make sure we have the best recommendations possible for this graduating class.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: I think we can safely say that it is never too soon to start thinking about your student loans, your borrowing habits, and are you setting yourself up for repayment success. So the challenge is, especially last fall and hopefully this spring, we’ll see, is a great opportunity to get veterinary students to start thinking about those things
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: For sure, and I would add that, it’s funny because I think last year we said something similar, that this is the most complicated start to repayment, and this year we have to say it again.
Jordan Benshea: Winning.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: We did. At some point we have to stop saying that.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Well, it’s true this year. I mean, I didn’t think it could get more complicated than last year and it’s gotten more complicated. It’s just wildly different, and I think we’re probably going to see that continue for the next few years at least, so each year will be its own special case. So you could participate, again, if you’re not graduating in 2025. By participating, you’ll be entered to win any of the prizes that we do at the end of the challenge period. But again, we’re going to keep it focused mostly on repayment and the specifics for entering repayment for the 2025 graduating class.
How to Participate in the Challenge
Jordan Benshea: So how does it work? How do they enter?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: How do they enter? They will go and grab their federal student aid data file from studentaid.gov and then upload that to the VIN Foundation My Student Loans tool. After reviewing that information, and if they need to add any Health Profession Student Loans or Loans for Disadvantaged Students they have to their My Student Loan summary, they could do that at that point. For those folks who are graduating in 2025, you’re close enough where you can send that data over to the VIN Foundation Student Loan Repayment Simulator. Start running simulations so you can start to see what repayment is going to look like for you after graduation. Grab a copy of that repayment simulation link and paste it into the Debt Repayment Prep Challenge Message Board area, and answer some of the questions that we ask to include in that submission. So there are instructions on the Debt Repayment Prep Message Board post that will walk through exactly what you need to do and the questions you need to answer in addition to the loan repayment simulation link that you’ll provide.
Jordan Benshea: And it seems to me one of the big benefits of spending the time doing this is that we hear a lot from students and colleagues who are reaching out and really looking for that one-on-one help, and this really provides an opportunity to know like your situation’s going to be reviewed, it’s going to be looked at, and this is a great opportunity to dive in and start to learn more about your repayment options.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Absolutely, and you can also submit your entry anonymously. So Becca and I will know who you are, but the rest of the community won’t. So even if you submit your message board post, your challenge entry so to speak anonymously, we’ll know who you are and be able to enter you into the prize drawing as well.
Prizes and Motivations
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Now I know we hope everybody is driven by the want of knowledge and student debt education, but it was not so long ago that I was a vet student myself and I heard the word prizes a couple of times, so what are these prizes we’re talking about?
Jordan Benshea: Well, should we really say the one that draws the most attention?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Go for it, Jordan. You’re a huge fan of…
Jordan Benshea: Well, it seems like nothing motivates veterinary students more than Door dash gift cards.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Food. Food as a motivator. Yes, vet students, unsurprisingly, are food motivated.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: I’m food motivated.
Jordan Benshea: So that’s one of the prizes, what else do we have?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: We have a VIN Foundation Rumpl Blanket, which is very cool. As well as some VIN Foundation Yeti mugs, in addition to the DoorDash cards.
Jordan Benshea: Which will keep your beverages warm way longer than necessary, so lots of opportunities for scalding in your mouth.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: And those things are bombproof, I mean, literally. You can really beat the crap out of those.
Jordan Benshea: Okay, so we’ve got the challenge. That’s really exciting.
Upcoming Webinar Details
Jordan Benshea: Let’s talk about the next thing, which is the webinar.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: So normally every year we do what we call the New Grad Student Loan Repayment Playbook, and that is to make sure everybody is aware of anything that has changed or the specifics unique to entering repayment for that particular graduating class. As we’ve already mentioned this year, the 2025 graduating class is going to face a repayment landscape that’s like no other, and it’s very confusing. More complicated to get into repayment, and unfortunately, as much as we try to simplify it getting into repayment is probably the most challenging aspect of repayment. It’s where a lot of things have an opportunity to go wrong and kind of start you on a path that might end up costing you more in the long run or haVINg you spend more time in repayment than you should have to. So this is a really critical period, and it tends to, well, it’s just very busy around graduation time. I mean, a lot of celebration, a lot of relief, a lot of excitement for what happens next, and your student loans usually get pushed to the back burner. That contributes to some of the mistakes that we often see as veterinarians enter student loan repayment, so we’re going to do our best to try to provide that information that you need to get a good start to repayment so we can avoid some of those common mistakes that we see.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: I think it’s also worth pointing out that we talk about common mistakes and things like that, many of which are often preventable, and so that’s why this playbook webinar is so helpful, is because this year’s graduating students are getting that information that they need about their student loans focused on new grad veterinarians about how to enter repayment. Tony and I look at this stuff all day, every day, and so we’re a little bit more familiar with, okay, what’s changed in the consolidation application, if that’s what you’re looking at, or what’s changed with the grace period and how does that go? So let us kind of help you weed through that. If you have questions, ask. That’s what the student debt message boards are for. That’s a great time to pop into that webinar and ask your questions. So, just kind of being proactive in all of that.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah. I’ll also say that I think that there’s, some people might be thinking like, “cool, I’ll just join the webinar, don’t really need to do the challenge. I’m good on food. Don’t need a DoorDash gift card.”
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Who are you?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Not food motivated.
Jordan Benshea: Not food motivated, like my dog. But I think there is huge value in really taking the time and putting in the effort to do the challenge because it’ll allow you to answer a lot of the questions that you’re probably going to be asking during the webinar. I will just say our last webinar we got over 250 questions and we do our best to get all those answered, but there’s a pretty good chance we won’t get them all answered. So it’s good to do that front end works to make sure that those specific questions that you have are there, such as should I file a tax return?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, I’ll be honest too, and I’ll say that, again, this is one of the most complicated times in student loan repayment that I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been doing this for more than 10 years. The challenge this semester is also to help us make sure that we don’t miss any pathway that might be helpful for you to enter repayment in a way that we might not even see yet. In the past it’s been very consistent, where the recommendations were generally the same for most graduating veterinarians with some maybe different recommendations for less common career pathways. But this year is going to be completely different, and I kind of want to see what some of these potential post-graduation plans look like so we can make sure that we have the best, most comprehensive recommendations for you to get started as possible. So, it’s going to be tough. I mean, the things that we’ve been saying for 10 years or more are changing. So going back and finding an old recording or maybe even an old blog post or an old message board post are some of those things that we said to prior graduating classes are not going to apply this year. So, help us out by participating in that challenge, so we make sure we have all of those recommendations teased out by the time we do the new grad playbook, which is May 7th. Is that correct?
Jordan Benshea: Yep. So it’s May 7th at 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern, and to your point, Tony, it’s sort of like that Jerry McGuire scene with Cuba Goodie Jr, “help us help you.”
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Well now you just dated yourself.
Jordan Benshea: Dated myself, I realize that, and I’m okay with that. It’s a solid enough scene that it’s worth it. But really, I mean, our whole goal of VIN Foundation is for us to do the best job we can in helping all of you. So help us understand where are we failing, where can we can improve, how can we best support you in these efforts? So, help us help you.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Jordan, you’re now going to have to have a clip of that scene in the show notes for everybody to go check out.
Jordan Benshea: Obviously we will do that and then we’ll also make a meme of it to encourage people to engage in the challenge. So that’ll be a social outreach coming soon, I’m sure.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Did you know that, that movie came out in 1996?
Jordan Benshea: Oh gosh.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, so.
Jordan Benshea: I mean.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah.
Jordan Benshea: I know.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: So some of the students that are graduating, this graduating class…
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Weren’t even born!
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Weren’t even born! So yeah.
Jordan Benshea: Solid Jordan, solid.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Now that all the students listening are like, oh gosh, three old people.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, exactly.
Jordan Benshea: Exactly. Winning. I’d still say that movie holds up and that scene still holds up. I would still encourage you to explore it. Okay, so the webinar is May 7th, 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern. We should also say the challenge is live now. People can enter that now.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Correct, and you should have received an email about that, at least if you’re in the 2025 graduating class. We’ve got some alerts set up within VIN, so if you’re logged into VIN you’ll see alerts about that and we’ll start kind of pushing that out beyond the class of 2025, soon as well. But yep, the notifications are out there. The message board is live. We’ve got some participants who have completed their entry already, and we’re hoping to see more and more participants for the next few weeks.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: This I know will go in the show notes, but also check out VINFoundation.org for information on the challenge and how to enter.
Jordan Benshea: Yes, we’ll have all those links. Thanks, Becca. We’ll have all those links in the episode notes. Should we move on to number three, the latest updates?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: We can try.
Jordan Benshea: Don’t worry if we record it now, it’ll just change by like, in three hours.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: End of day.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah.
Latest Student Loan Updates
Jordan Benshea: Okay, so what are the latest updates with student loans that we know here and now today?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Alright, so the ones that I think at least stand out are they’re starting to process Income Driven Repayment applications again, as well as Public Service Loan Forgiveness Employment Certification forms. So that’s a good sign. They had been paused since February pretty much, when the most recent federal court ruling pretty much stuck a fork in SAVE. The incoming administration and their Department of Education decided to halt all income driven repayment plan applications and that created a bit of a mess. People that were running up against their recertification deadlines were being pushed out of, well they were kept in the plans, but their monthly payments were increasing to fixed 10 year plan amounts and things that were way higher than they had previously been paying. So, that created some chaos for a while. We saw a lawsuit from the American Federation of Teachers filed, which poked the bear, so to speak, and the Department of Education went and revised some of the things that they were doing and started correcting some of those missteps in those recertification applications. And pushing people out of those plans into higher monthly payments, that’s still being corrected, so you may even still see some of that happening to your own loans. But it is encouraging to see that the applications are at least starting to be processed again. From some of the more recent information I’ve seen, it sounds like May is going to be when they’re really going to ramp that up. Right now they’re processing, I guess what seemed to be the “easier ones” to get out of the way. But then starting in May, they’re going to start processing the applications for people who are trying to move out of SAVE and into a repayment plan that might help them receive Income Driven Repayment or Public Service Loan Forgiveness credit again. I’m trying to think if there’s any, I mean, there was some confusion too that popped up as part of that where they were threatening to not allow married borrowers who file separately to separate their income from their spouse, but that looked like it was kind of an oops. So that happened last week, and then this week they said, “oh no, we’re going to let you separate your income from your spouse, but we’re also going to count your spouse and the family size,” which is kind of how the rules used to be before SAVE came on the scene. And now that is kind of indicative of the process to start unwinding what we’ve all come to know as SAVE and RePAYE before it. That’s a lot.
Jordan Benshea: That’s a lot, and I know that a lot of it can just seem overwhelming and we have a lot of blog posts that are really helpful and breaks down a lot of this information. We will put those in the episode notes. Are there any other important changes?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: You really got to know what repayment plan you’re using. So what are my loans look like now? So kind of the student loan physical exam process that we preach. So grabbing your student aid data file, uploading it into the My Student Loans tool, looking at your current repayment plan, what is your anniversary date if you’re using an income driven plan. A lot of those have been shifted. That was part of the correction that I mentioned in terms of the grand pause on the Income Driven Repayment applications. One of the corrective measures that they took was depending on when your previous IDR anniversary date was. They started pushing some of those out into the future. So you may have been required to update your income information recently, but that might have changed as part of these corrections. So you want to see what your anniversary date is, when your next due to provide your updated income, but also look at your IDR eligibility. We’ve got a tab in the My Student Loans summary page that will show you which other income driven options you are able to use. So if you were in SAVE and you want to start looking at what’s going to be next for you, it depends on which income driven plans you’re eligible to use. So we have developed what we’re calling IDR profiles, which combination of income driven plans you’re eligible for will determine what your IDR profile is. So you can start thinking about, “well, if I can’t keep using SAVE, what’s my next move,” or “if they dial back Pay As You earn, what’s my next move?” So those are things that you’re going to want to start looking at. It will also apply to the new grad class. So what’s your IDR profile? Which options can you use as you’re entering repayment?
Rebecca Mears, DVM: I do think it’s also worth saying that if you are one of those borrowers that had been using SAVE and you’re in the forbearance now, that’s not necessarily a bad place to be. I can say that that’s where I am myself. That’s where Tony and his wife are right now. So there are reasons to stay in that SAVE forbearance. I think a lot of what you hear on the news is like, “oh, SAVE is dead. It’s going away.” While, yes, that is largely what it looks like is going to happen, that hasn’t happened yet, and so making a move to a different repayment plan, if you are in that SAVE forbearance, may not be the best move just yet. Maybe at some point that is what happens, and so that’s also just really important to understand what makes the most sense for you and your repayment strategy.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, a couple of follow up points on that. So, we have seen some confusion around what status your loans are actually in. People who think that they’re in the SAVE forbearance but notice that they’re accruing interest, which means they’re probably not in the SAVE forbearance, so those are things you want to double check as well. That’s one of the good indicators to know whether or not you’re truly in the SAVE forbearance or in some other status, is if your loans are accruing interest then you’re probably not in the SAVE forbearance. So the SAVE forbearance is pretty unique in that everybody that actually was using SAVE when the court blocked it or had applied for SAVE and were able to get into that general forbearance shortly after the court blocked it, their loans should not be accruing any interest, which is why it’s an okay place to be. Your loans aren’t costing you anything, so it’s not a bad place to be while we wait to see what is next since you know you’re not accruing any interest and no payments are due. You also don’t earn any forgiveness credit during that time, but that’s not as big a deal since the interest is shut off. Now for some people that are hoping to get Public Service Loan Forgiveness relatively soon, then you may want to think about switching out of that forbearance because you can’t get forgiveness credit while you are in that SAVE forbearance. However, just know that changing repayment plans right now is probably going to take a little bit of time. Even if you submit an application today, it’ll probably take at least a couple of months, if not longer, because of the huge backlog of applications that has built up over the recent confusion and pauses on processing those applications.
Jordan Benshea: And I think one thing that’s really important, and we say this every student debt series episode, but keep your contact information up to date. I know somebody who had an email that they were not checking regularly and they changed the loan servicer on them, and they didn’t see the email and then it was marked as a late payment because they didn’t see that it was changed. So that’s impacted their credit, and you want to make sure that your contact information’s up to date and that you’re checking all of those sources where the loan servicers, et cetera might be contacting you to make sure that you are seeing any information that comes in.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, that’s a great point, and, again, kind of to follow up on that, even if you do everything right, there’s a very good chance that your loan servicers are still going to screw something up. So you could still very well end up in those same awkward positions where a payment wasn’t applied or too much was deducted from your account or your loans are marked in delinquent status and reported to a credit reporting agency. You just have to keep a close eye right now because there’s just ample opportunity for mistakes, even if they’re not your own, but they can affect you in a number of different ways.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, so colleagues can go for updates, look on our website, look at the episode notes. There’ll be a bunch of other links there, episode notes, and links that are helpful from blog posts to previous podcasts, previous webinars, along with all the things that we’ve shared today. Is there anything else, Tony and Becca, you think our listeners need to know?
Advice for Soon-to-be Graduates
Rebecca Mears, DVM: We spent a couple minutes there talking about what those that are currently in repayment can be doing now. I think it’s worthwhile, we started off with our soon to be new grads, I think it’s worthwhile to take a few moments to talk about some of the things that they can be doing as well. The challenge is a great opportunity, but there’s even things beyond that of you likely have some upcoming expenses, moving, getting your veterinary license, various other things. Start thinking about those now and what that looks like as far as how much money you have currently and what those expenses are going to run you and do those things match. There’s still some time to do different things with your student loans while you’re in the semester if need be, and we’re happy to answer those questions, but I do think that is something to put on our soon to be new grads radar.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, and you’re going to start to get a lot of information, probably either from your school financial aid office or you might even see something from the Department of Education completing exit counseling. Sometimes that information is not going to be as reliable as we would like it to be and may differ greatly from the recommendations that we provide during the challenge or during the new grad repayment playbook, so just know that there isn’t one way to do all of this. Oftentimes, some of the things that I hear from students, particularly the graduating classes, is that they heard some information from their financial aid office or through their exit counseling thing and I’m just like, “oh man, that might work great for undergrads, but it’s probably not very appropriate for graduate school professionals, particularly veterinarians who are entering repayment. So, just double check what you’re hearing. I mean, even the stuff that we tell you, you want to double check what we’re saying. You want to try to get as much information as you can, but you’re going to be hearing it from a lot of different places and they’re probably going to have some different messaging to them. So, bring those questions with you to the playbook webinars or to the message boards and we’ll help to wade through that with you.
Outro
Jordan Benshea: Okay, as always thanks both of you for your tireless effort. I know it’s exhausting. It is job security, but you guys are probably beyond that now. So thank you both for all of your time and effort and helping colleagues and remember, help us help you and we encourage you to join the challenge, register for the webinar. All of that information will be the episode notes, and we look forward to seeing you all back here, hearing you all back here, being here with all of you soon. Thanks everyone.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Thank you.
Rebecca Mears, DVM: Thanks, Jordan.
Jordan Benshea: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Veterinary Pulse. Please check the episode notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe, and share a review. We welcome feedback and hope you will tune in again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, VINFoundation.org, and our social media channels. Thank you for being here. Be well.
