Join VIN Foundation Board Member Dr. Matt Holland as he talks with Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine (RUSVM) student Justice Birdsong. She shares her advice for creating a network in the profession, how she encourages empathy among colleagues, and her personal journey to veterinary medicine. As a Co-Founder of the RUSVM National Association of Black Veterinarians chapter, and her role as Secretary for RUSVM SAVMA, she shares her dedication to making the profession a better place for underrepresented veterinary students.
GUEST BIO:
Justice Birdsong
Justice Birdsong is from Kansas City, Missouri. She graduated from the University of Missouri (MIZZOU) where she earned her B.S. in Biological Sciences and became a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. During her undergraduate studies she worked as an assistant and manager with the Small Animal Critical Care Assistants (SACCA) in the ICU of the University of Missouri Veterinary Health Center. She is currently a DVM 2023 candidate attending Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine (RUSVM) with hopes of becoming an ER and Critical Care Veterinarian. She is currently the 2020-2021 RUSVM SAVMA Secretary, a member of the RUSVM Diversity Task Force, and is a charter member and the Vice President of the RUSVM Student Chapter of the National Association for Black Veterinarians (SNABV).
LINKS AND INFORMATION:
- I Want to be a Veterinarian: https://iwanttobeaveterinarian.org/
- VIN Foundation Vets4Vets®: https://vinfoundation.org/vets4vets
- SAVMA: https://veterinary.rossu.edu/about/student-government/national-savma
- National Association Black Veterinarians: https://nabvonline.org/
- Ross Diversity Task Force: https://medical.rossu.edu/about/news/rusm-diversity-inclusion-taskforce-provides-a-three-month-update
You may learn more about the VIN Foundation, on the website, or join the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
Justice Birdsong, DVM: For me, when we’re talking about diversity as it pertains to the organizations, the schools, and the workplace within vet med, within these spaces you’re creating an environment for people belonging to different group identities. You’re creating spaces where they’re welcomed, they’re protected, and more importantly, they’re respected.
Jordan Benshea: That is Justice Birdsong, and this is the VIN Foundation’s Veterinary Pulse podcast. I’m Jordan Benshea, Executive Director of the VIN Foundation. Join me and our cohost and VIN Foundation Board member, Dr. Matt Holland, as we talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics and share stories. Stories that connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community. This podcast is made possible through individual donations to the VIN Foundation. Thank you. Please check the Episode Notes for Bios, links, and information mentioned.
Meet Justice Birdsong, DVM
Matt Holland, DVM: Welcome, Justice. Thanks for joining us today.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Thank you for having me.
Matt Holland, DVM: And where are you speaking to me from?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I am currently on the island of St. Kitts and Nevis. I’m currently in quarantine in my dorm at Ross University.
Matt Holland, DVM: How long do you have to sit that out?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: This is my first day. We just flew in yesterday, so 14 days total.
Matt Holland, DVM: Oh gosh. What are you going to do to keep yourself entertained?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Lots of studying because we still have classes during this and some labs to prepare for as soon as we get out. So lots and lots of studying.
Matt Holland, DVM: Okay, so tell me where you’re at in school at Ross. What semester?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I am a fifth semester, we’re a few weeks from closing our fifth semester. I think that’s equivalent to like a third year in like the normal four-year programs.
Matt Holland, DVM: Like the start of third year, the end of third year?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Start. I need to get to seven. So, I have two more after this, two more semesters and then clinic will start.
Matt Holland, DVM: Okay, and when do clinicals start for you?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: December of next year, well, it’s still 2021, but December coming up.
Matt Holland, DVM: So, pretty soon. Okay.
Journey to Veterinary School
Matt Holland, DVM: I jumped ahead a little bit because I want to hear how you got there, where you were born and raised and how you made your way there in the first place.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I am originally from Kansas City, Missouri, born and raised. I went to the University of Missouri Columbia, Mizzou for undergrad. I really didn’t know that vet med was going to be the path for me until probably my senior year of high school. I was getting close to that date where I was going to graduate and you have to figure out okay, we got this diploma now what? I knew I wanted to go to college because I wanted that upper education but didn’t know in what. I was starting to panic a little bit talking to my mom and my advisors. I’m like, I don’t know what to do, what can I do? My mom brought up, you love animals, you’ve had all kinds of animals all your life, why don’t you be a vet? I sat and thought about it, and I was okay, so what does this look like? I started to research it, and at the same time I got lucky because my high school was starting this program for people in the STEM field. During your senior year of high school, you could go and extern in between your class times. So, I was able to join this program. It was the Northland CATS program, but I’m not quite sure what the CAT stood for anymore. That was a long time ago. I applied and interviewed for this program and got accepted. So, in the mornings, I was going to an internship that they helped me get at a local veterinary clinic. I would do I think it was two hours in the morning at this veterinary clinic, and then drive to school and go about my normal school day. That was really awesome, and they really helped me get a lot of my shadowing and interning hours that I used to apply to undergrad and to log for vet school applications some years after.
Matt Holland, DVM: That does sound like long days, although I guess it’s good preparation for long days in vet school. Like two hours before your school day starts?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: No, it was during school, but I wasn’t scheduled for classes during those two hours. It counted as credits towards my diploma.
Matt Holland, DVM: Oh, nice.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Yeah, but it was long days because even after school I had to go to one of my two jobs at the time. I was working at a kennel at the same vet that I was interning for because they ended up hiring me in their kennels. I also worked at a children’s daycare center that’s like a before and after at one of the elementary schools. So, very used to be in busy.
Matt Holland, DVM: Wow.
Advice for Aspiring Veterinarians
Matt Holland, DVM: Well, okay, so at this point of your journey to our pre-vet listeners and those considering going into the profession, what would you recommend? Do you have any advice for people thinking about it or people who already know they want to be a vet? What should they do?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: The best advice I can give is honestly start early and any connection you can make, try. Start going into local veterinary clinics near you and ask to intern because that’s literally all I did. I had my resume ready. Hey, this is what I’m trying to do. Do you have any opportunities for me? An internship, externship, even just starting out in the kennel, just getting that beginning exposure to the dogs and cats boarding, the daycare, that type of thing? But starting as early as possible. If my mom could have planted in my head to be a veterinarian maybe a year or two prior, that would have been a great start. Not my senior year. They really, really care a lot about the hours of hands-on experience, because yeah, you’re going to learn it all when you’re sitting in the classrooms, reading the books, but there really is nothing like that hands-on learning. You’re going to be able to make connections later.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yes, the connections are extremely important. Those are the some of the people who are going to write your letters of recommendation to apply in the first place. I would add two things; that you can start late too, but I started early while also starting late, because I’m a second career veterinarian and I started getting experience five years before I applied. So, that was pretty early in terms of the grand scheme of things. I was doing part time jobs, so I would do some part-time jobs in the area that I studied for in undergrad, which was journalism, and then I would do some part-time jobs like the ones you just mentioned, getting experience at a clinic or shelter and meeting people and getting connections. The other thing I would add is the VIN Foundation resource, I Want to be a Veterinarian. I think that is really helpful for anybody at this stage of the process.
Clinical Rotations and Veterinary Culture
Matt Holland, DVM: Okay, so now you’re at Ross, you are fifth semester, and you start clinics later this year. Do you have any idea where you will be when rotations start or is that still further down the line?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: So next semester, we’re going to start having conversations about clinical placement and looking at their requirements. I’m really hoping to put Mizzou as my number one choice. I really, really want to go back. During undergrad, I got the opportunity to work at their veterinary teaching hospital, and so I’ve already made a lot of connections with some of the doctors, the technicians, and the residents. I worked in the ICU specifically, so I do have that strong interest in emergency and critical care. To go back there I feel like would help me and tremendously.
Matt Holland, DVM: Does that matter for how you’re placed? If you already have experience somewhere, does that help your chances? I don’t really know how that works.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: They look at a mixture of everything; GPA, of course is definitely one of them, if you’ve had any failures in your classes, why you want to go to those schools. So, is it because you have some type of specialty you’re looking into? Are you trying to go be back closer to home? They do consider some of the personal aspects. It’s a combination of everything. A lot of conversations have to happen in negotiations, but Mizzou, I think, is definitely going to be my number one.
Matt Holland, DVM: Now you have experience at two veterinary hospitals. Well, Ross is not a hospital, but two schools. I’m wondering what you have learned about the culture of veterinary medicine.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Well, two big things. If I had to sum it up in two words, exhausting and unfortunately at times a bit insensitive. Exhausting because of the, what do they call it, emotional fatigue, compassion fatigue? And a lot of the misinformation that’s out there about our field, what we do, why we do what we do, and the care for your animals in general. I think a big part of that, you know, good old Dr. Google and social media, everybody thinks that they can treat their pets from home, and so you really get put in some tough, tough situations, you’re given tough cases. Insensitive, I would say, because I’ve been around certain veterinarians and techs that, while they’re frustrated with what the case may be, they’re not really looking at the bigger picture. I’ve heard things like, “Oh, don’t have a dog if you don’t have the money to take care of it.” Well, I get where you’re coming from, but at the same time, I think it’s always important to be cognizant of everybody’s different socio-economic statuses, different levels of education, and that people have different views on human and animal relationships and that interaction between them. There’s a different value placed on that, depending on where you are, cultural beliefs, backgrounds. So, while we would like everybody to have ample amounts of money to throw at their pets, 2 – 3000 plus dollars for surgeries, that’s just not the case. And while it may be frustrating, I get it. It’s just not the reality that we’re living in.
Diversity and Inclusion in Veterinary Medicine
Matt Holland, DVM: You brought up the word background. I am curious how your background has informed your understanding of the culture of veterinary medicine, and specifically, that you have parents of different races and how that might give you a broader understanding of what that means in terms of access to veterinary care, and veterinary care in general.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Yes, so I am of mixed race. My mother is white, and my father is mixed race as well. He is black and white. Being of mixed race, maybe I experience, I guess, other people differently than maybe those who are of one race, because I feel like I can be more empathetic. I’ve seen all sides really, especially growing up in the diverse area that I came from where I had friends of all backgrounds and ethnicities and socio-economic statuses. I was able to be a little bit more empathetic with those who had more money than me, less money than me, different problems than me, problems from being a different race. I don’t know, I feel like when you’re growing up in a diverse environment, it’s a great opportunity to be educated and be more empathetic and sympathetic to the problems going on outside of you and around you. As far as veterinary care, I’m going to be honest. Where I came from, veterinary care was not really something that was brought up often. My dad used to breed dogs. He’s a very intelligent man. He’s very good at teaching himself all different types of things, like teaching himself to work on cars. So, when he was breeding dogs, he was teaching himself all about the pedigrees, how to care for the dogs, the food. Very intelligent. A lot of my early interest in dog care did come from him. That was really my only exposure to veterinary care. It’s not really something that’s talked about I don’t feel in black and brown communities. It’s not something that’s really affordable. You don’t really see a lot of vet clinics in black and brown communities.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, my brother-in-law is of mixed race, and he describes his experience, he’s not in veterinary medicine, but he describes his experience similar to yours, where you can empathize with more people because you look like more people. I also wonder how that informs your view and definition of diversity in veterinary medicine and how that’s important and why that’s important.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: So, for me, when we’re talking about diversity as it pertains to the organizations, the schools, and the workplace within vet med, that really means within these spaces you’re creating an environment for people belonging to different group identities. You’re creating spaces where they’re welcomed, they’re protected, and more importantly, they’re respected. I think that’s the most important part, you might not be knowledgeable about them, or the group they identify with, you might not understand it, you might not even agree with it, but you at least should be respectful of it. And when we’re talking about vet med and having conversations of diversity, it should not come from a place where it’s for a quota, or it’s for public appearances, you’re really caring about these people and respecting them and giving them an equal opportunity. I’m not doing it just to tolerate them or endure them, I should say. To me, if you’re going to have a diverse environment, like a diverse school, a diverse workplace, you need to ensure that you’re making efforts so that everybody has an equal opportunity. Everybody has a seat at the table. Everybody feels heard, everybody feels protected, especially when tough scenarios arise, when you have clients that may be racist, when you have occurrences like what’s going on right now, like the George Floyd case is currently being reheard. All the Black Lives Matter movements, all the increase of racist incidents among Asian Americans, it is really important that you’re creating an environment where they feel heard and where they feel protected. They need those safe spaces, and they need that respect, especially in a field like this where the suicide rate is so high. Just be that extra helping hand to where, hey, we hear you, we see you. Do you need anything?
Matt Holland, DVM: So much of what you just said, and the last part especially, do you need anything. We spoke with Serena earlier this week about how you can’t have diversity without inclusion, and you can’t have inclusion without diversity. And what you said, it can’t just be to fill a quota, it can’t just be for numbers or a bar graph. It has to be accompanied by, “Do you need anything?” Also, what you were just saying, how can we make this a safe space for you? How can we make this a protected space for you? How can we make sure that everybody feels like they belong?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Exactly.
Matt Holland, DVM: It’s something I care about deeply, if you can tell by the passion in my voice there.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I hear it.
Matt Holland, DVM: The more I learn about our profession, the more important it becomes to me because when I was talking about earlier how I started late, when I decided that I wanted to shadow somebody at a veterinary clinic, I asked my parents if they knew any friends who were veterinarians. My dad knew one, and he asked if I could shadow and that was that. I did not realize the privilege that went into that. I also didn’t realize that when I walked into that clinic, everybody was white. It didn’t strike me as homogenous. It didn’t strike me as something was off about that. I was just like, oh, everybody looks like what I look like here. That wasn’t even an active thought, that was in my subconscious. Now that I see the profession is 95 – 96% white, that’s not sustainable. It’s not good for one thing, but it’s also not sustainable, and the profession won’t survive if it doesn’t become more diverse. That will take a lot of work and it’s also work that’s worth it. So, yeah, I appreciate your perspective on that.
Mental Health in the Veterinary Profession
Matt Holland, DVM: You also mentioned the suicide rate, and another huge problem in our profession is how much we struggle with our mental health. Can you say a little bit more what do you think about that?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Honestly, you can’t just target one thing or a few things for everybody who is struggling with their mental health in this field, who is struggling with suicidal thoughts, or who did commit suicide. It’s very multifactorial. It’s personal. It’s the workplace. It’s the workload, it’s the fatigue, the imposter syndrome. It’s very multifactorial, and it’s really hard to just pin it to, oh, it’s this, oh, it’s that, oh, it’s this. I think that’s also why it’s so hard to try and fix the problem because we really can’t identify what the problem is for everybody, but we can make general assertions based on our own experiences. It’s definitely going to be a battle. I think continuing the awareness that we’re continuing to bring about it, continuing the conversations, continuing the support network, and letting people know, hey, we’re all in this together, if you need help, seek help. If you need help, if you need to talk, hey, I’m one of those people. Just continuing that education and continuing the conversation is very, very important. That’s really just going to be one of the leading ways that we try and overcome this.
Matt Holland, DVM: I think you hit the nail on the head again, it’s one of those things that you can’t fix, you can’t point at one cause, because there isn’t one cause. There’s not a simple solution, obviously. It’s also so much of what we don’t know about people, what they might have struggled with growing up, if they have childhood trauma, if they have a bad relationship at home, if there is emotional, physical, or substance abuse, or grief or loss about maybe a colleague who just committed suicide. There are so many things at play. I think one of the most important things we can do is check in on each other, and not just ask how you’re doing, but really ask how you’re doing. Also, you mentioned at the end to talk to people and reach out for help. I have to mention the VIN Foundation resource Vets4Vets. There’s also Support4Support for veterinary staff, assistants, nurses, and technicians. It’s something that personally helped me last year when I was going through a very deep valley. It’s peer to peer support for free, confidential support for anything like any of the issues that you and I just mentioned, like compassion fatigue, stress at work, anxiety, depression, or things going on at home. That’s what the VIN Foundation is here to do, is to help people. I just wanted to let listeners know.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: These types of resources are absolutely important, and they need to be promoted as much as possible. They are needed now more than ever.
Matt Holland, DVM: Have you seen a change since you’ve been involved, from before you started at Ross, since you’ve been involved at the Missouri hospital, have you seen a change in the profession or in either of those schools with regards to mental health?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I’m going to be completely honest and say that I really didn’t get into the depths of this career and the issues with it until I probably got here, to Ross, because that’s when I really started to have more raw conversations with veterinarians, with minority veterinarians. Taking the veterinary professional class here that we do and just really kind of getting to the cold hard facts of what does this profession actually look like. What does it actually cost? What are the downsides and disadvantages of this profession? So, I really wasn’t awoken to a lot of this until I got here. I think that’s what made me start to get so involved and so proactive with things and the different organization by joining.
Involvement in Veterinary Organizations
Matt Holland, DVM: Tell me about those organizations you joined.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I’m actually SAVMA’s secretary. I’m finishing out my year term as the SAVMA secretary. I joined the diversity task force here at Ross. I also was one of the charter members and I’m also the vice president of the student chapter we started here of the National Association for Black Veterinarians.
Matt Holland, DVM: Oh, that’s so cool. It also sounds like your plate is very full.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: It’s very full, but it brings me joy to have something else to do other than school. It’s a nice distraction. Also, I was always taught to leave a place better than how you found it. This is me being proactive and trying to get the ball rolling with being a part of the change and being a part of the history. So, I don’t mind it. I mean, it does get stressful at times, and it does take away from my studies at times, unfortunately, but I don’t want to leave this school with any regrets. And I don’t want to leave this school with just the book work, just the lectures, just the initial education. I want to say that I got more out of my experience here.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, yeah, I was heavily involved with SAVMA when I was at Illinois, and one of my mentors gave me a piece of advice that stuck with me. She said you’re not going to remember the nights you stayed up till two or three studying parasitology or toxicology. You are going to remember the relationships and the connections you made, and that’s what you’re going to carry with you after you graduate. Not this list of 10 things that you memorized and forgot.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Absolutely. The orgs and the relationships and what I’ve been able to be a part of has honestly been my favorite part of vet school, because me joining these orgs was really me stepping out of my comfort zone and pushing myself to do more and pushing myself to speak more. So, it’s honestly been my favorite part of this experience.
Matt Holland, DVM: That’s really cool. Also, I’m biased because I feel the exact same way. Of course, I think it’s cool. I am also wondering, well, I have two questions. One question is the same that I asked earlier, but with a different tint on it, because you said you didn’t really fully understand these issues about the profession until you got to school. So, it’s the same question, what would you tell pre-vets or people applying? What do you know now that you wish you would have known then about mental health and diversity and the issues that you’re finding important being involved in these organizations?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Well, two things for the pre-vet people. I would really, really try and encourage them to find a mentor of sorts, if they can. I know that’s not always easy for everybody depending on their standing and who they know. Really find a mentor and start asking the hard-hitting questions, start researching. Everything is online nowadays. Reach out to vet students, if you follow some on social media. I know a lot of vet students are, it’s becoming a more popular thing to have a social media page through your journey throughout vet school. If you follow any of them, DM them because more often than not, they’re more than happy to share their experiences and guide you through. For current veterinarians and current vet students, I think it’s important that they try and start educating against this earlier because personally when I was in like pre-vet meetings and working at the hospital, these weren’t really conversations that we’re being had. Everybody was hyper-focused on applying, getting the application done, we were working or getting work done, and we’re so excited to be hands on and touching the dog. But these raw conversations weren’t really happening, and I think it’s very important that the education start occurring earlier on.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yes, and we’ll put your social media handles in the Episode Notes, and I’ll volunteer you to be DM’d.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I’m fine with that. Just I’m boring, and I don’t have the best page. For me to take pictures and when I’m in these labs and actually working, I’m not worried about taking pictures, so, I really don’t remember. So just my boring old personal page, but I’m always willing to give advice. We’ve even been working on doing some talks and mentoring as an org, as part of in NABV. So always, always open to answer questions.
Final Thoughts and Advice
Matt Holland, DVM: I am curious if you have a favorite quote.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I do actually. So, during undergrad in one of my literature classes, I was introduced to James Baldwin, he wasn’t really someone talked about in high school.
Matt Holland, DVM: I love that guy.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I love hearing him talk and just the power behind his delivery of his speeches, and that debate that he did. I am fascinated with him. He said you have to decide who you are and force the world to deal with you, not just the idea of you. That really resonated with me in two ways. One, again, from being of mixed race. Growing up, I constantly felt like I was being othered nobody really knew where to place me on what side of my race. I’ve even been mistaken for other races. I’ve had some pretty insensitive things said to me because of my race or assumptions about my race. So just constantly being othered. And finally, having to grow up and take a stand and correct people and educate people to basically address me correctly, to stop the ignorance, stop the prejudices, and stop the assumptions. The other thing was, I was also growing up more of a quieter child. You know, the good student, did what I was told to, got the A’s, a little bit shyer. I definitely didn’t do things like this, talk on a podcast, or join the orgs that I have. I’ve definitely grown a lot, and that was just by me taking a stand and making efforts to push myself and try to grow and put myself in these more uncomfortable positions, because I didn’t want to be that shy, quiet person forever. You know, I have a personality. I wanted to start sharing my thoughts and having my voice heard. So yeah, I mean, this is me, and now the world is being forced to reckon with me and not just tolerate me.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, I love it. I’m going to share one of my favorite Baldwin quotes. I don’t have this memorized, I admit to looking it up right now, but I go to it often. “I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they sense once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain.”
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Oh, that’s a good one, definitely a good one.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, I love that one so much.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: I just love hearing him talk. The way he viewed the world was just incredible.
Matt Holland, DVM: Well, I read an article about him that the author theorized that he could see the world so clearly and come up with quotes like that. If you look up James Baldwin quotes, it’s like somebody seeing the world through a crystal ball. The theory was that he could see it that way, it being the world, and particularly the American culture, because he didn’t fit into any group. He was a black, gay man, when both of those things were…
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Heavily hated.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah.
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Like I kind of touched on that earlier, when you’re put into different group identities and different minority groups and you’re constantly othered, to me it just seems like we become more tolerant. You view things differently, you’re more accepting of other people who are othered, who are in different groups than you. So again, you can either live with the experience and you become more tolerant, or you take action to educate yourself and become more tolerant yourself. Learn to outgrow maybe some of the negative misconceptions that you have. Yeah.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, I totally agree. I lost count of the times I’ve said I totally agree with you now. But yeah, just preach. Well, if you have any one thing, or it doesn’t have to be one, it can be more, but if you have anything to leave the audience with, what would that be?
Justice Birdsong, DVM: Honestly, I think it’s just to work on extending a hand backwards. If you can go out of your way to help somebody, not necessarily just in the vet career, in everyday life, but even in the vet field, if you know somebody who’s trying to get where you are, just be willing to help. It’s not a competition all the time. You don’t know how they’re struggling. It may not be a big deal to you, or it may just be one more thing for you to do on your already busy schedule, but it could truly mean the world to that person. I know me personally; I was a first-generation college student, and a lot of this process was done by myself, done in confusion, done with anxiety. But just the help of others, without that I wouldn’t have got here. It truly means the world to those who don’t have the network, don’t have the connections, don’t have the know-how. So just if you can extend the hand backwards and help somebody else, just kind of elevate them, do it.
Matt Holland, DVM: Well, if you’re still listening out there, then that’s your assignment is to mean the world to somebody. Thanks again for joining us, Justice.
Outro
Jordan Benshea: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Veterinary Pulse. Please check the Episode Notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe, and share a review. We welcome feedback and hope you will tune in again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, VINFoundation.org, and our social media channels. Thank you for being here. Be well.
