Listen in as Executive Director Jordan benShea chats with student debt expert and Board Member Dr. Tony Bartels in this next installment of our Student Debt Series. In this episode we’re discussing the latest changes to student loans, including the latest student loan pause extension through August 31, 2022. Tony covers everything from should you file your taxes separately if your married, to how to do a physical exam of your student loans.
*Episode note* As always this is a fast changing landscape and since we recorded this episode additional student loan information has been in the news, check the links below for more information.
GUEST BIO:
Dr. Tony Bartels
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA graduated in 2012 from the Colorado State University combined MBA/DVM program and is a VIN Foundation Board Member and Student Debt Expert, and an employee of the Veterinary Information Network (VIN). He and his wife, a small-animal internal medicine specialist practicing in Denver, have more than $400,000 in veterinary-school debt that they manage using federal income-driven repayment plans. By necessity (and now obsession), his professional activities include researching and speaking on veterinary-student debt, providing guidance to colleagues on loan-repayment strategies and contributing to VIN Foundation resources. Beyond debt, his professional interests include small- and exotic-animal practice. When he’s not staring holes into his colleagues’ student-loan data, Tony enjoys fly fishing, ice hockey, camping and exploring Colorado with his wife, Audra, and their two rescued canines, Addi and Maggie.
LINKS AND INFORMATION:
- *New info!* As we were recording this podcast new information came out about student loans
- VIN Foundation Student Debt Center
- Check your current student loan servicers and other loan details — VIN Foundation My Student Loans tool
- VIN Foundation WikiDebt
- VIN Foundation Webinars
- VIN Foundation Blog post
FedLoan Servicing- StudentAid.gov
- Federal Student Loan Servicers
- StudentAid PSLF
- New Graduate Student Loan Playbook
- Stay up to date with VIN Foundation updates
- Personalized assistance is available via the special Student Debt Message Board areas.
If you do not have an active VIN username and password, you may gain access through the VIN Foundation access application - Email VIN Foundation: [email protected]
- Get updates to stay tuned for the VIN Foundation webinars on student debt.
You may learn more about the VIN Foundation, on the website, or join the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: The pandemic forbearance benefits for federally held student loans have been extremely beneficial for all of us. This constant threat of restarting repayment and then extending again and restarting and extending it just adds to the overall uncertainty and confusion. What do I do? I’m not really sure what I should be doing or what I shouldn’t be doing. It’s been going on for more than two years now. We have to be aware of what’s going on, always be knowing what it might look like again and thinking what our budgets would look like if and when we do reenter repayment. Also, just reviewing our current student loans portfolio, so we know exactly what status our loans are in, and how we can actually take full advantage of the benefits as long as they last.
Meet the Host and Guest Expert
Jordan Benshea: That is student debt expert and VIN Foundation board member, Dr. Tony Bartels, and this is the VIN Foundation’s Veterinary Pulse podcast, special Student Debt Series. I’m Jordan Benshea, executive director of the VIN Foundation. Join me and our cohost and VIN Foundation board member, Dr. Matt Holland, as we talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics and share stories. Stories that connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community. This podcast is made possible by individuals like you who donate to the VIN Foundation. Thank you. Please check the Episode Notes for bios, links, and information mentioned. Hey there, Tony. Welcome back.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Hi, Jordan. Thanks for having me again.
Jordan Benshea: Again, we’re back again.
Latest Updates on Student Loans
Jordan Benshea: We’re back again with VIN Foundation board member and student debt expert, Dr. Tony Bartels, to talk about what else? The latest in student loans. On April 6th, the Department of Education extended the loan pause payment again through August 31rst, 2022. For those that might have been hiding under a rock since COVID, this pause includes the following measures for eligible loans; suspension of loan payments, 0% interest rate, and stops collections on defaulted loans. Tony, we’re back here again and there’s more information as always. I can only imagine you’re living and breathing this and there’s confusion. I can only imagine what this is like for our colleagues out there who are probably really confused, so let’s just dive right in. Where do we start?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: While the pandemic forbearance benefits for federally held student loans have been extremely beneficial for all of us, this constant threat of restarting repayment and then extending again and restarting and extending it just adds to the overall uncertainty and confusion. What do I do? I’m not really sure what I should be doing or what I shouldn’t be doing. It’s been going on for more than two years now. I’ve lost track of what the official count of how many times this has been extended. I’ve heard anywhere between six and seven at this point. We may even get to extend it again, so we have to be aware of what’s going on, always be knowing what it might look like again and thinking what our budgets would look like if and when we do reenter repayment. Also, just reviewing our current student loans portfolio, so we know exactly what status our loans are in, and how we can actually take full advantage of the benefits as long as they last. There’s going to be benefits that extend even beyond when we officially reenter repayment, and that’s the part that is I think, probably the trickiest. Everybody really focuses on what’s the next end date for the suspension. We know the next end date is August 31rst, 2022 and if it expires on time this time around, then we’ll all reenter repayment afterwards. Some of us don’t even know what that’s going to look like yet, but along with that deadline there are extensions to a lot of other things that are associated with student loans.
Understanding Income-Driven Repayment Plans
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: We talk a lot about income driven repayment plans because they tend to be very beneficial for veterinarians and anyone with a student debt-to-income ratio that’s greater than one, but typically, we have to provide annual documentation of our income and we haven’t had to do that. This has probably been one of the largest sources of confusion for those of us that entered the pandemic forbearance using an income driven plan or applied for an income driven plan during the pandemic forbearance. When do I have to provide my documentation next? By all accounts, that has been pushed to at least March of 2023, and for many of us it’s probably beyond that, so even if the benefits end August 31rst, we would roll into repayment under the same monthly payment we entered during the pandemic forbearance, or if we had our payment adjusted for any reason during the pandemic forbearance, it would enter that monthly payment, and we wouldn’t have to provide documentation again until at least March of 2023, which is the current date which also can move if we get another extension?
Jordan Benshea: It seems that’s one of the main questions we get in our webinars and the different conversations that we’re having. How do I submit my income? How do I submit my income? Where can I do that? Where can I do that? On the flip side, we’ve heard of some people submitting their income, and then their payment turns out to be higher.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, and that’s unfortunate. I think in the very beginning, and generally the posture of the loan servicers through this is, if you’re going to send income documentation and it’s not going to result in a lower monthly payment, they’re not going to process it, but if you keep sending it to them, they recalculate your payment, and you may not like the results.
Jordan Benshea: They’re not not-for-profit companies.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: They don’t necessarily get paid based on what
Jordan Benshea: Right, right, right. right.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: You don’t want to submit the income documentation if you don’t have to, and particularly if that income documentation is going to result in a higher monthly payment than you had previously. This is where it pays to be smart about what status are your loans currently in, what repayment plan are they in, what was the minimum monthly payment or what will the minimum monthly payment be when we come out of the pandemic forbearance. If you were to provide additional income documentation at this moment, what would that monthly payment be? I think a lot of our colleagues find this to be mysterious. They rely on the loan servicer to tell them what that monthly payment should be, but you should really do that calculation ahead of time. I do that every time I submit income documentation to my loan servicer now. I haven’t had to do that for more than two years now, but I do that calculation ahead of time, so I know exactly what to expect as a result and if they tell me something different, then we’re going to have a conversation. You should know what that payment is going to be going in. It’s a simple equation. The discretionary income calculation takes your taxable income, it subtracts off 150% of the federal poverty guidelines for your family size and where you live in the US. If you don’t want to do that math yourself, we’ve got that calculated out in a variety of blog posts on the VIN Foundation.org website, or you can use the VIN Foundation Student Loan Repayment Simulator. You put your taxable income in there, your family size, your tax filing status, your spouse’s income, and it’ll show you what your payment should be for this year. If your loan servicers are calculating something different, then there needs to be a discussion on why that is.
Tax Implications and Strategies
Jordan Benshea: Since you mentioned taxable income, we’d be remiss if we didn’t mention the fact that taxes were due yesterday. We regularly get people saying, “How does this impact what I file from a tax perspective? What if I don’t need to file taxes? Should I still file taxes?” There seems to be a lot of confusion around that as well.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, so this gets really into the weeds but can also help maximize these pandemic student loan benefits. There’s a lot of us out there that benefit from filing our taxes separately once we’re married to have a lower student loan payment. Oftentimes, because we’re dealing with some pretty big student debt numbers, if we can separate our income from our spouse’s using a plan like income based repayment or Pay As You Earn, by filing our taxes separately and having our payment based only on our income, we can save more money. We may pay more a little more in taxes, but we save more on our student loans which justifies doing that. The pandemic forbearance shut off all of our student loan payments, so we haven’t had to make any payments, so that incentive to file your taxes separately specifically for student loan purposes has been temporarily removed. If you don’t have to make a payment and the next time I provide income documentation isn’t until 2023 some time, then I can safely file my taxes jointly for this 2021 tax filing year, even if I wanted, to go back and amend my tax filing for the 2020 year to receive the joint tax filing benefits, because it’s not going to adversely impact my student loan payment, because the payments are shut off. You can use this information to your advantage and if you want to take that additional step, I have worked with some colleagues who have amended previous tax returns that they filed separately from their spouse to reflect a joint filing status and have gotten a refund for a prior year. I think you can only go back maybe three years in the past to do that, but you don’t need to go too far back, because the pandemic forbearance benefits have been in place for only two years. If you want to and you were so inclined, or you can work with an accountant that wants to help you do that, it could be worth your while. You could get 1,000s of dollars back from the IRS just by changing your tax filing status.
Jordan Benshea: That’s one of those things that there’s so much confusion around. We keep hearing from borrowers and colleagues they feel like they’ve got to do something. They keep hearing this has been extended, this has been extended, but I think some of them are starting to get pretty nervous, and so they’re like what should I do? What should I do? I’ve got to do something, I’ve got to do something, and submitting the income update may not be the best idea if that’s going to increase your payment, but there are a lot of things that you can do. You listed a couple of them earlier and, as always, of course, everything that Tony’s talking about, the links, and everything will be in the Episode Notes. Let’s look at a bulleted list of what you recommend as somebody’s looking at their loans. What is that overall view?
Conducting a Student Loan Physical Exam
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, the first thing I would encourage everyone to do is a physical exam. Their annual physical exam of their student loans, so before you take the next step and call your loan servicer, or officially do anything with your student loans just do a physical exam. Just like we do with our patients to assess what’s going on, do your annual physical exam on your student loan. That entails obtaining your student aid data file from studentaid.gov. We have a video on the VIN Foundation My Student Loans page on how you can find that information, but everybody who has federal student loans has a detailed Federal Student Aid data file that contains all of the hairy borrowing history that you have with the Department of Education. That is going to tell you everything you need to know, but nobody wants to read the information that’s in that file, so in the VIN Foundation Student Debt Center, we built some tools that can help summarize that information and show it to you in a more favorable fashion. Also, it serves as a way to double check your loan servicers, so what your loan servicer is telling you, what information you’re seeing in your loan servicer portal, that student aid data file serves as an independent check on what your loan servicer is telling you. Once I upload that file, there’s a lot of valuable information in there. I’m not only going to see my balance and any unpaid interest in there, but I can also see what repayment plan they are listing for me. If I was using a repayment plan like an income driven plan prior to the pandemic forbearance starting or if I applied for one during the pandemic forbearance period, I’m going to see that repayment plan name listed in my loan details. If I haven’t officially chosen a repayment plan, I may just see forbearance listed to indicate that I’m in this pandemic forbearance period. That’s a little unsatisfying if you’re in a repayment plan, and it says forbearance, well, that would trigger to me that I might want to make a phone call or reach out to my loan servicer to say, “hey, what repayment plan do you officially have me in?” Because if I don’t see a repayment plan listed there, and particularly if I don’t see an income driven repayment plan listed there, then maybe you haven’t selected a plan, or you’re in a standard 10 year plan, or some other repayment plan that maybe is not counting towards forgiveness. You’ll also see in that My Student Loan Summary, the income driven repayment eligibility tab. We’ve got some algorithms that will help determine which repayment options you’re able to use. You could choose any plan that you want, but the income driven plans have some pretty goofy qualification requirements based on your loan types, and when you started borrowing. I do see a lot of people that are using plans that may not be the most beneficial plan for them, so checking to see what plan am I listed in, do I see income based repayment there, am I actually eligible for Pay As You Earn? I’m using Revised Pay As You Earn [REPAYE], so that’s the things that I’m looking for. First, I’m looking to see if someone is eligible to use Pay As You Earn because generally speaking, that tends to be one of the most beneficial of all of the federal student loan repayment plans, and particularly the most beneficial of the income driven repayment plans, but I see a lot of people that are eligible for that not using it. Often, I’m looking at that income driven repayment eligibility tab. Are they eligible for PAYE? Are they actually using Pay As You Earn? If not, why not?
Understanding Anniversary Dates in Income-Driven Repayment Plans
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: I’ll also see anniversary dates in there, so when you use an income driven repayment plan, you’ll have an anniversary date. That anniversary date is when you’re normally required to provide that updated income documentation so you can have your payment recalculated. During this pandemic forbearance period, there is no requirement for you to provide annual income documentation unless your income has decreased. If your income has decreased, they’ll recalculate your payment lower to reflect that lower income that you’re currently earning, but your anniversary date is going to show you when you’re next due to renew.
Pandemic Forbearance: What You Need to Know
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Now, we also know from the pandemic forbearance details that no one is required to renew before March of 2023. If you see an anniversary date in your file that’s between now and March of 2023, you can ignore it. You won’t be required to provide documentation until at least March 2023, but that date that is listed there is an indication that your new renewal date will probably be one year from the date that’s listed in there now. Let’s say that your renewal date in there is listed as November of 2022, so that’s between now and March of 2023. We know that you won’t have to renew in November. No one is going to have to renew until March of 2023, but that renewal date that’s in there that says November of 2022 indicates that your next renewal date will probably be in November of 2023 under the current guidance. That is a helpful indicator of knowing when you’re next due to renew, which again is extremely beneficial. If I’m a recent grad and my recent tax returns have not been very robust because I haven’t had a full year of income documented yet, and I still have a $0 monthly payment under a plan like Pay As You Earn or something really low because I did an internship or something, there’s a good chance that that payment is going to extend well into 2023, if not farther. That tends to be more beneficial in terms of helping you with your cash flow to do other things like working on your financial wellness, building emergency funds, saving for retirement, saving for the down payment on a home, starting a family, all of these other things that people are generally postponing because they feel like their student debt needs to take first seat.
Jordan Benshea: We’ve heard about some colleagues who have gone ahead and made payments during this time, because they just felt oh my gosh, I feel like I should be paying something.
Making Payments During Forbearance: Pros and Cons
Jordan Benshea: We also know that A] they don’t have to be making payments, so if they have made payments, what are their options?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, so the decision of whether or not to make payments is complicated. From a financial standpoint, while it could be beneficial for you to make payments, it doesn’t necessarily make sense to make payments regularly during the pandemic forbearance period. There are a couple of different ways that you can approach this. If your debt-to-income ratio is less than one, and it’s quite likely that you’re going to pay your student loan balance off before reaching any kind of forgiveness, then it can make sense for you to make some additional payments during this pandemic forbearance period, but I wouldn’t encourage anyone to make regular monthly payments until we know when this is actually going to end. The payments that you might be making towards your student loans during the pandemic forbearance have the exact same impact as if you were to take all of that money, put it into some other account that’s maybe earning interest and make one lump sum payment the day before the pandemic forbearance period ends. If I weren’t in a position to benefit from making payments, I would hold off and make that payment on the last possible day of the actual pandemic forbearance period. We don’t know exactly when that’s going to be. Right now, it’s supposed to be August 31rst, so maybe I’ll make that lump payment on August 30th if that actually comes to be.
Jordan Benshea: If there’s not another extension.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Right, but it also provides me an opportunity to work on my budget, maximize all of those other critical areas of my financial wellness that I should be focusing on ahead of my student loans, and if I get to that point and still have some extra money on hand, that makes sense for me to put towards some of my student loans while the interest rates are all zero, then I would do so that day before the pandemic forbearance period ends. Now, for those of you that have a debt-to-income ratio that’s greater than one or it’s highly likely that you will hit student loan forgiveness, it doesn’t make sense to make any payments above what is required. The pandemic forbearance period is extremely beneficial for those of us that are on track to hit student loan forgiveness, so there is no good financial reason to make an additional monthly payment towards your student loans. If you have, the good news is that you can request a refund of any payments that you’ve made during the pandemic forbearance period. Any payment that you’ve made towards your federal student loans between March 13, 2020, and whenever the pandemic forbearance period ends, you can request a refund of those payments. You have to do that through your loan servicer, so you have to contact your loan servicer, identify the payment amount that you’ve made that falls within that calendar window, and request a refund of those payments. I would do that if you have made payments and redirect those funds to those other more critical areas of your financial wellness.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, if you’re able to get that money back. Okay, so another thing that we’re hearing from colleagues is it’s kind of the wild west out there right now, in terms of what we’re hearing and the information but we’re hearing some choosing consolidation. Can you help shine some light on that?
Consolidation Loans: Timing and Benefits
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, and this is where it has been particularly messy for those of you that have graduated into the pandemic forbearance benefits, so 2019, if you did an internship maybe or residency and deferred your student loans or 2020, 2021, and now 2022. In the New Grad Playbook webinar that we do for graduating classes, and we’ll be doing another one of those probably about a month from now, so sometime in mid-May, we’ll do a New Grad Student Loan Playbook – what you should do with your student loans to get started in repayment. We often talk about the benefits of using a federal direct consolidation loan as soon as you can after graduation. The timing of that is critical. The reason why we recommend that is because your veterinary school loans have grace periods, and your grace periods don’t really count towards anything useful. They don’t count towards forgiveness. When the pandemic forbearance benefits are not in place, you’re still accruing interest which will then eventually get added to your principal. So, the grace periods are generally not very beneficial when it comes to your federal student loans. The only way to end that grace period early is through a federal direct consolidation loan. Even if you have all direct loans, and you technically don’t need to consolidate to be eligible to make other loans eligible for a repayment plan, like Pay As You Earn or revised Pay As You Earn, I still encourage people to consolidate their loans during their grace period immediately after they graduate, so they can officially end that grace period, get into an income driven repayment plan, and get the clock ticking officially on forgiveness. If they do that immediately after they graduate, they can assure a $0 payment or a very low payment for the first 12 months of repayment. The way the income driven plans work is you have to provide income documentation when you first apply for them. If you file a tax return in your last year of veterinary school, most of you are not going to have a very robust income. That will assure that you have income documentation that will result in a very low or $0 payment for the first 12 months of repayment. If you end up hitting forgiveness, all of that stuff will be super beneficial for you. Even if you don’t end up hitting forgiveness, that buffer of having a very low payment due in that first 12 months will really help you get started with your overall financial wellness plan. There’s a ton of huge benefits to consolidating immediately after you graduate. Now the problem arises, if you attended one of those New Grad Playbook webinars, and we told you that you should consolidate your loans and maybe you didn’t do that. It’s now two years later and you’re still in the pandemic forbearance and you haven’t officially chosen a repayment plan. Now’s not a good time to consolidate. The way that the student loan system is set up is if you do not choose a repayment plan after your grace period expires, you are technically in the standard 10 year plan payment. It’s the default repayment plan that all of our loans go into if you don’t choose something different. Again, technically a standard 10 year plan payment will count towards forgiveness under income driven repayment plans. Now, I haven’t seen any guidance or any language around this yet because this is all pretty new territory for everyone, but I hope and expect that those of you that haven’t chosen a repayment plan after graduating into the pandemic forbearance period will technically be in that standard 10 year plan payment six months after your grace period expired and that time will count towards forgiveness once we get to something that resembles normal repayment again. If you were to consolidate now, say you graduated in 2020, you would lose any chance of having that standard 10 year plan payment time count towards forgiveness, because the consolidation physically replaces your old loans with a new one. All of that prior history would be erased as well, so consolidation timing is extremely important. It’s best done immediately or as close to graduation as possible, but if it’s been a while, particularly six months since graduation, then you may really want to consider if consolidation makes sense for you at this point. It still can, particularly if you have multiple loan types that might not be eligible for income driven repayment, and you see yourself hitting forgiveness or working towards public service loan forgiveness, it can still make sense to consolidate, but at that point you probably want to reach out for some help on how exactly to consolidate because it might make sense to do more of a partial consolidation than consolidation of all your loans to preserve any forgiveness time that you may have already earned.
Jordan Benshea: You mentioned how we had a webinar and we suggested consolidation, and as we talk about things change and along those same lines, we did a webinar on April 6th, and since then, things have changed or updated. We will have that link for that webinar and that webinar recording in the Episode Notes. Tony, what aspects of that do you want to talk about in terms of where things have shifted since then, and the new information we’ve received?
Recent Updates and New Information
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: That’s one of the reasons why I’m super excited to do this particular podcast, because it gives us an opportunity to talk about the things we’ve learned just since we did the webinar a couple of weeks ago. We did the webinar the same day the announcement was made that the pandemic forbearance benefits were going to be extended through August of 2022, but we didn’t yet know all of the ancillary details about the renewal dates, and how long you could request the refund, and there’s even a way for you to self-report your income through studentaid.gov. That was supposed to have ended at the end of this July but has since been extended through February. So, if you do have to provide income documentation to your loan servicer, and maybe you don’t have a tax return on hand, or a pay stub is not a very good representation of your income, you can self-report what that income should be, which is extremely beneficial. Prior to that option, you either had to go through your loan servicer and you know all of the problems that arise that way or use a tax return which sometimes isn’t the best kind of documentation for everybody to use. So, the self-reporting feature of income is extremely beneficial as well. That is another date that we learned since April 6th and that has been extended through February of 2023.
Jordan Benshea: Great!
Outro
Jordan Benshea: Where can colleagues go for updates? They can go to the website. We’ll make sure that they can also sign up for emails. Where else which would you suggest they go?
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yes, studentaid.gov is a great place to go. That’s right on the homepage there. They have the updated information on the pandemic forbearance extension, it talks in detail about the renewal certification guidelines, and all of that information that we covered here. It’s also where you’re going to find your student aid data files so you can do that student loan physical exam that we talked about, but I would really encourage you to take that information over to the VIN Foundation Student Debt Center. It’s publicly available, anybody can use that, everybody does use that. It’s also where our veterinary colleagues can get personalized assistance for their student loans, so if you’re still really struggling, not sure how to make sense of what your loan servicers are telling you, or what you should do, if you login while using the Student Debt Center, there’s a link to the Student Debt Message Board area where we provide personalized assistance to help you work through those details. You can even post anonymously there, you get the answers that you need, and the rest of the community gets to learn from that experience as well.
Jordan Benshea: Yes, that’s a great resource. Anything else that you feel our listeners need to know about this news before we sign off of this episode? I’m sure we’ll be back very soon with more.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Well, stay on your toes and ask a lot of questions. Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action. In this pandemic forbearance benefits for your student loans, it generally is for a lot of us. Do that physical exam, make sure you understand everything that you’re seeing in there, because this is also a great time to try to correct some of that stuff that may not be exactly what you expected while there’s no interest accruing. This is a great, really a great time to fix anything that maybe you should have done and haven’t gotten around to doing yet, so take advantage of this time. Make sure you’re maximizing those benefits and also focusing on your overall financial wellness, being prepared for what student loans are going to look like in our budget again, but also making sure that we’re looking for opportunities to build our overall wealth while we don’t have to make these student loan payments.
Jordan Benshea: I think that’s great advice. Thank you so much, Tony, for being with us again. I’m sure our colleagues are finding this very helpful, and we appreciate it. Thanks so much, Tony.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Yeah, thank you again for having me and we’ll keep you posted on anything that changes.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, I’m sure we’ll be back soon. Thanks, everyone.
Tony Bartels, DVM, MBA: Bye.
Jordan Benshea: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Veterinary Pulse. Please check the Episode Notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe, and share a review. We welcome feedback and hope you will tune in again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, VINFoundation.org and our social media channels. Thank you for being here. Be well.