This episode VIN Foundation Board Member Dr. Matt Holland is having a conversation with Get MotiVETed Co-Founders Dr. Quincy Hawley and Renee Machel. Listen in as they discuss self-improvement, diversity, equity, & inclusion, and mental health.
HOST AND GUEST BIOS:
Dr. Matt Holland
Matt Holland, DVM graduated from the University of Illinois CVM class of 2017. He is a Veterinary & Pre-Vet Student Advocate for the VIN Student Team and his interests are Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion, mental wellness, environmental health, student debt, & policy. His interest in policy led him to Washington, D.C. after graduating, where he completed the AVMA/AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science) Congressional Fellowship in the office of Illinois Congresswoman Cheri Bustos and the AAAS Science & Technology Policy Fellowship at the USDA National Institute of Food & Agriculture. Originally from a suburb of Chicago, IL, he came to veterinary medicine as a second career. After graduating in 2007 from Drake University with a B.A. in radio and television journalism, he worked as a freelance television producer for various media outlets in Chicago and New York City including Big Ten Network, Major League Baseball Network, and the Chicago Bears. During veterinary school, he found a love for giving back to the profession, and one of his proudest achievements is serving as SAVMA President. He is thankful for the opportunity to keep giving back as a VIN Foundation board member and excited for the future of the VIN Foundation.
Dr. Quincy Hawley
Quincy Hawley, DVM is a 2013 graduate of NC State’s CVM. Dr. Hawley has 6 years of working in small animal general practice. He is the co-founder of Get MotiVETed LLC, a company that provides wellbeing solutions for veterinary professionals and organizations. He is a Certified Professional Coach, self-published self-help and fitness author. Dr. Hawley has experience coaching a variety of veterinary professionals including but not limited to veterinarians, practice managers, and various veterinary hospital support staff. Dr. Hawley is also the president of the NC Association of Minority Veterinarians, a 501-3c non-profit organization with a purpose of improving diversity, inclusion, and cultural competency for the profession. Dr. Hawley volunteers his time as a member of NC State’s CVM admissions committee, and is currently serving his 3rd term doing so. He lives in NC with his wife, 2 daughters, along with their 8 dogs, 1 calico cat and a handful of chickens!
Renee Machel
Renee Machel is a nationally recognized wellbeing speaker, certified life coach, CYT 200 yoga instructor, mindfulness, and meditation guide. As the co-founder of Get MotiVETed she aims to provide a positive impact on people’s wellbeing and enhance the culture within organizations. She has spent nearly 20 years in the veterinary industry as a hospital leader and technician. She now shares her personal story of overcoming wellbeing struggles and key teachings in managing personal and professional wellbeing and development. Additionally, she lives in NC with her blended family, welcoming their newest addition into the world this spring, and of course, her fur-kids Eli & Penelope. As a family, they spend much of their time racing motocross when she and her fiance are not wearing their ‘entrepreneur hats’.
LINKS AND INFORMATION:
- VIN Foundation Vets4Vets® Confidential Support Group: https://vinfoundation.org/resources/vets4vets/
- Get MotiVETed: https://getmotiveted.com/
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
Jordan Benshea: Welcome to the Veterinary Pulse podcast. My name is Jordan Benshea. I’m the Executive Director of the VIN Foundation. Veterinary Pulse is the heartbeat of the profession. Join us as we talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics, from student debt to mental health, and share stories. Stories connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community. This podcast is made possible through individual donors like yourself and our technology partnership with VIN, the Veterinary Information Network. Thank you for being here. This episode, VIN Foundation board member, Dr. Matt Holland, is having a conversation with Dr. Quincy Hawley and Renee Machel about the state of wellbeing in the veterinary profession. They openly share struggles with mental health and their journey towards happiness. Please check the Episode Notes for Bios, links, and information mentioned. Thank you for listening.
Meet Quincy and Renee
Matt Holland, DVM: Welcome, Quincy and Renee. Thanks for joining me this morning.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Thank you for having us.
Matt Holland, DVM: I met Quincy a few weeks ago, which sounds recent, but I only met Renee a few minutes ago. So, would you share your stories with me? Where were you born and raised and how you got here today?
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Yeah, Renee, you want to start?
Renee Machel: Sure.
Renee’s Journey to Wellbeing
Renee Machel: I grew up in Detroit Metro, Michigan. My first practice was in Romulus, Michigan. I was there for 11 years, raised in the field. I started out in kennels, and I moved to the different areas of the hospital up to a leadership role within the clinic. Then I moved to North Carolina in 2011 and was at a few different practices here in North Carolina. It was at my last practice that I met Dr. Quincy Hawley. Early on in my career, I struggled greatly with my wellbeing, and I had a number of different diagnoses like anxiety, depression, insomnia, and chronic back pain that really, as early 20-year-old going through college and new into their career, I felt like why am I facing this? I didn’t want my life to be like that. I wasn’t 100% sure what I was looking for, but I knew that what I had at the moment wasn’t it. So, the closest thing I could put my finger on was happiness. I went out on a journey really by myself. This is fairly early in 2000s, when the internet was becoming more accessible, and I educated myself in a lot of different areas of life, and really made some big shifts to my mindset and my habits, and overall, to my life. In which case, brought me off of the medications, got me to a place where I was really thriving. So, when I met Dr. Hawley, we had started to share our stories with each other. At that time, we were both in a really great place in our lives where we were stable, and we were thriving. When other people would ask us about our stories, we both recognized that it wasn’t just us individually, but instead it was a part of the collective industry. A lot of people in different places were experiencing the same types of things that we had experienced, and so we decided that we are going to start helping people. It originally began with the idea of a book, but it very quickly morphed into a company. We became certified coaches and speakers, and I’m a certified yoga instructor. We began to create programs where we structured a lot of the things that work for us and our clients in a way that other people could replicate so that they could transform their own lives and their own wellbeing and their own careers. And then here we are today.
Matt Holland, DVM: So, Quincy, describe to us how you started and how your path eventually crossed with Renee’s.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Absolutely, absolutely.
Quincy’s Path to Veterinary Medicine
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: I was born and raised in a small town called Oxford, North Carolina. From there, my dad and brother when I was born had 20 beagles. So, they were big rabbit hunters. We lived out in the country. I would always see deer and rabbits and squirrels and basically any animal in North Carolina I probably came across at some point within our own yard and things of that nature. So, from there, I went on to North Carolina A&T, Aggie Pride and did animal science. As an animal science major and student, the chairman of Animal Sciences asked me if I’d ever thought about going to veterinary school and I was like, that thought has never crossed my mind. I knew how to get to veterinary school, but from there I really started doing internships with USDA and ELANCO Animal Health and with a small animal hospital. From there, I really just fell in love with veterinary medicine. I knew that’s what I wanted to do from that point. Fast forward a little bit and went through veterinary school, graduated, went to a small animal practice where, as my first real job as a veterinary student, I did get burnt out there. I didn’t even know it was really burnout at the time. I was just experiencing some difficulties and some challenges. I didn’t have any healthy ways of coping with the stress and overwhelm. Even though I was performing and producing as a veterinarian, I was struggling internally, mostly. So, people didn’t really know that I was having the hard time that I was having, both personally and professionally. Maybe we’ll get into some details of that a bit later in this episode, but I eventually overcame that struggle. Now I found myself living what I consider to be a life of, it sounds every time I say it, I’m like, gosh, man, you’re so corny, it’s all unicorns and rainbows, but literally a life of heaven on earth. I truly enjoy being on this life journey. I enjoy my life as a veterinary professional. I have, in my opinion, the perfect setup, and I have challenges and struggles daily. I fail a lot. I mess up a lot, but that’s just a part of the process and I’ve learned how to cope with those things in a very healthy way.
The Birth of Get MotiVETed
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: A part of the way I met Renee, as she mentioned we worked at the same hospital, my second hospital. She was a technician, and I was one of the doctors there. Again, realized we’re on very similar paths and boom, Get MotiVETed.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yes. I’m curious, if you like it, both of you. If you thought you were just waiting for the right person to meet, and then something was going to take off, or if you if it kind of came out of nowhere. You’re just doing your thing, then the relationship formed, and that’s how it happened, or a mix of both.
Renee Machel: I don’t think that we were waiting for each other. I think maybe the universe knew we’re waiting for each other, but we were definitely in our own worlds. It was through our behaviors that set us a little apart and connected us. So, I told this story just a couple of days ago. I was reading a book or Quincy asked me, “Hey, Renee, what book are you reading?” We got to talking, and we very quickly realized that we were both heavily invested in personal development, and in researching all of these different people from ancient philosophers to modern day psychologists, and the most successful people in the world. Really just trying to better ourselves and how that looks in practice. We started working out together on our lunch breaks and having these conversations and it started with a book idea. We were like, oh, we should just write a book about the journey and about almost like a Plumb’s, but for wellbeing. Then we got to talking about it more and more, and we realized that while a book way may be in our future, we wanted to deliver more, we wanted to teach more, and share more. So, our first venture was speaking, and then our second venture was CE seminars. Our company really has blossomed so organically through the ideas that we have, and the conversations that we have with people.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: And I think a big part of it, too, is our drive to really help the profession, more importantly than anything.
Challenges and Coping Mechanisms
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: We both struggled, and my struggle was so, let me go back to my story just a little bit. Since I didn’t have any of the healthy coping mechanisms, the tools, strategies, tactics, resources, and principles that I’ve got now as a veterinary professional and as a human, back then I turned to alcohol. I turned to smoking, and I turned to just eating. I gained a lot of weight, about 30 pounds the first year or so of being a practicing veterinarian. I would literally leave work, go to the first gas station I’d see on the way home, get an alcoholic beverage, pour it in the cup and I would drink and drive on the way home. And I would smoke a Black & Mild on the way home. When I got home, there was more alcohol there, and I would take a few shots from the trunk of my parked car before I went in to face my family. I was effectively ruining my marriage. I was living what I consider a subpar life of mediocrity. It was very, very private, as I mentioned earlier, so my coworkers didn’t know. I’m not even sure my wife knew the extent of the pain and hurt that I was experiencing. It wasn’t the fault of mine or the hospital I worked at. It wasn’t the fault of my boss. It wasn’t the fault of my family. It wasn’t my fault. No one was to blame. It was this was the result of a system. A system that doesn’t include the importance of wellbeing and mental health in its natural progression of these people coming out of high school, going into undergrad as pre-veterinary students, matriculating through a really rigorous curriculum, and then going oftentimes into jobs that are relatively stressful. Right? Like you’re going to war with no war training and no weapons and no army, essentially, you’re just kind of thrown out there. And I know things are starting to change a little bit, and we’ll get into that, but that pain that I experienced, I had suicidal ideation as well. I think Renee more importantly, we didn’t want other people to have to go through that if they didn’t have to go through that. Like, we didn’t want to see people struggling, because they didn’t know the things that we had learned and found out in books, in audio books, in YouTube videos, and through classes and trainings, and really investing in our mental health and wellbeing. So, that was a big part of everything, that drive, that determination. Renee and I literally went door to door to hospitals in North Carolina, and we didn’t even know what we were doing. We’re just like, let’s just do something. Right, Renee?
Renee Machel: Right. Like I said, when I was struggling it was in the early 2000s, and I had to go on this very lonely journey lifting every rock and every pebble. Like Dr. Hawley said that it’s not accessible to people, we’re in a system. So, we wanted to bring an alternative to people. There is an alternative. We at some point subscribed to the belief that this is just life, this is the way that it is, this is the way that it has to be. You might look to your left or your right and see your neighbor or your peer, whether they’re struggling or whether they’re not struggling, it just is. But we’re not only just suggesting, but what we’re teaching, what we’re sharing with people is how to live an alternative life. How to transform your life. You know, for me, I did not want to be on a handful of medications. I was taking medications, both pharmaceutically and over the counter, for every symptom that I was having and counteracting all the other symptoms that were coming along with the ailments that I was still symptomatic from, as well as the side effects from the meds. So, for me, there was this really pivotal moment that I said, enough is enough. They wanted to add another medication, and I said, enough is enough. This can’t be the only way. It can’t be the only way. So, when we set out on that journey, we want to bring these things to people’s fingertips, because we know as veterinary professionals, whether you’re a technician like I am, or whether you’re a practicing veterinarian, or a vet student, or even a pre-vet student, we know that people are busy and they’re more fragmented than ever. People need simple solutions that they can easily access and incorporate into their lives in a really tangible way. Step by step they will transform, because that’s just the basics of modeling behavior. That’s the scientific theory. If you do these certain things, you’re bound to get this result, right. That’s what we really wanted to create for people because like, like Dr. Hawley said, there is an option, you don’t have to live in that pain, in that darkness for the rest of your life. You don’t have to feel that. There is an option to recover and to heal and have these conversations. But for us when we were going through it, I was early 2000s and so people weren’t having these conversations. I had them with the closest of people, and even like Dr. Hawley said, people didn’t know how bad it really was for me.
Matt Holland, DVM: You both have each mentioned “the system.” I’m putting air quotes around that, big ones.
Systemic Changes for Wellbeing
Matt Holland, DVM: I am curious what changes you would like to see in the system, that reaches back to pre-vet, and also extends well into people’s veterinary careers. Not just doctors, obviously, anybody in the profession. How would you like to see the system change to better support wellness?
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Yeah, so I can touch on that. What I know for sure is that wellbeing, if you’re going to have it, whatever that happens to be, I define wellbeing as the intentionally created state of being happy, healthy, and prosperous, as a result of practicing frequent, deliberate personal development and self-care. I also look at wellbeing as being a set of skills, tools, strategies, resources, principles, and tactics that allows you to get your way in life and in our case, veterinary medicine. Because if you have that ability, if you had that skill set to create an ideal, to create something in your mind, well, you’re not going to create something with burnout and you’re not going to create something that you hate that is filled with overwhelm, stress, burnout, and all its friends. You’re not going to create that. You will create something much better. So, I believe that if we’re going to, as the veterinary community, get to a place where people have that set of tools and strategies, it has to be a prioritization. It has to be a priority. People have to see the importance, they have to know and understand in their heart of hearts the importance of prioritizing wellbeing and that it’s not just something really fluffy that only people who like to meditate and do yoga do, or that only people who like to eat salad with grilled chicken and exercise once a day and go for a jog and a walk in the park. No, this is something that people who want to enjoy their lives as humans and as veterinary professionals do for a living. As it relates to the system, this is going to have to be something that I believe that the individual prioritizes for themselves. I believe organizations and organizational leaders have a duty and an obligation and a responsibility, both ethically and morally, to provide resources for their teams. And to not think that stress and overwhelm and burnout in veterinary medicine is just the way that it is and that it has to be.
Renee Machel: I think with wellbeing, and I’m going to go on the tail of what Dr. Hawley was saying and work backwards, is that we have to be intentional with it. We have to be intentional with the desire to prioritize it, but more importantly, we have to personalize it. Wellbeing as an industry, or for an individual, or for a specific organization isn’t a blanket statement. You really have to take the principles, tools, and strategies and apply them to your life, to your organization. It has to be consistent and adapting. We know that what’s going to work in 2020 isn’t going to work in 2021, and moving forward year by year, but even on the smaller scale what’s going to work day to day might not work week to week. So, we have to be willing to adapt and change, but also keep it really personal. We have to be willing to get a little vulnerable, get a little uncomfortable, and put the magnifying glass on ourselves, put the magnifying glass on our organizations with a little introspection and compassion, to really analyze, take some inventory of where we are, because my motto is start where you are. You’ve got to take stock of where are you and where do you want to go. I think as a system, one of the disservices that I feel is a challenge to most children and adults, is the question of what do you want to be when you grow up? Right? If we take that one question, and we apply it to a five-year-old, or a fifth grader, or a teenager, and we say you get to be one thing for the rest of your life, to me, that was what caused a lot of my misalignment growing up, because I could not decide. I felt really disconnected from even just myself. We have to look at ourselves and our organizations to say it’s not just one thing, we know that. That’s really important. It’s not just one thing, it’s not just about the money, it’s not just about the staff, it’s about all of these things. So, to apply that lens with compassion, knowing that we’re not looking to create a lot of criticism, we know that it’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s not that it’s any one’s fault. It’s not to say that as a practice manager, you reach out to a company, let’s Get MotiVETed to be a resource for your people. It’s not to say that you’re doing anything wrong, in fact, it’s to say that you’re doing something really great, you’re investing in yourself, and you’re investing in the team. It’s to acknowledge the fact that we can’t be everything for everyone. We’re humans first, and then we are our role whatever that role may be, second. So, we really have to rehumanize the industry, and take a look and say, okay, what’s the formula that’s causing the burnout? Is it the high number of cases? As a practice, let’s just run with that example hypothetically, that if as a practice we are seeing a high number of appointments per day, per team [doctors, staff techs, whatever the case is], if that is happening, what can be done to change it? So, if we want better answers, we’ve got to ask better questions.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yes.
Renee Machel: Then to understand, again, it’s not a blanket statement. What works for Quincy might not work for Amy. We’ve got to be willing to say, it’s all right that if you have 20 staff members that that 20 staff members don’t work the same schedule. It’s okay that one staff member works three 11-hour shifts, and the other staff member works four 8-hour shifts, rather than saying, okay, 20 people, this is the way that we work, and now create your life around that. Instead, let’s look at people as holistic individuals and adapt around that. Right? That’s been something that’s proven to be becoming more valuable to people. It’s time rather than money. So, really just looking at things on those holistic scales, on those individual scales, but you’ve got to start really gross and then you refine. If you start where you are, you start with a really big picture, and then you refine down to where you say, okay, November of 2020 we’ll start to look at the individual schedules, but in January of 2021, you will start with what’s the number of cases? Where are we at with the clinic? You just start really gross, and then you refine that vision., and then you work with it, and you adapt with it, and you change with it?
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, a lot of that resonates with me. You mentioned what works for one person might not work for another, and what works for another might not work for the one person. It reminds me the VIN Foundation had a vision years ago to provide similar support with Vets4Vets and Support4Support [for veterinary support staff], and it reminds me of what Quincy said earlier about how part of the change that he’d like to see is more of this coming from leadership, from top down, not bottom up. I agree with both of you when you say part of it needs to come from a personal level.
Personal Wellbeing and Professional Growth
Matt Holland, DVM: I recently, very recently, last year, went through some mental health challenges and was hospitalized for it. I got a diagnosis of bipolar II, and I am now in a much better place. I think the biggest thing I learned through it all was that it starts with me. It reminds me of when I went to vet school. It’s one thing to want to go to vet school, and it’s another thing to put in the work. It’s like a diet, or an exercise routine, or any habit that you want to form, it’s one thing to want it and it’s another thing to work toward it. I apply the same thing to my own personal wellbeing. Like you’ve been saying, it’s the recipe for me, so what I apply to myself might not apply to anybody else.
Renee Machel: And that’s so powerful, right? Because now that you have this negative information, you can advocate for yourself. That takes a lot of courage to advocate for yourself, right? If you’re in an environment, if you’re in an organization that views that as a problem, that views that as a weakness, or views that as something that can’t be accommodated to, that’s a really big issue. So, if we, as a society, can make it completely socially acceptable and protected under employment laws for people to have cigarette breaks, smoke breaks regularly throughout the day, how is it so unfathomable that we can’t have breaks for people to get fresh air, to meditate, to work in a room with less blaring lights, to have a different case load? To accommodate those different needs so that we can be more inclusive, because with or without a diagnosis, we are individuals that just function differently, and it doesn’t devalue when it doesn’t change your capabilities or your competency. In fact, it’s just a different recipe.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you, and also have some cynical thoughts about why we can’t make those changes to society.
Renee Machel: Tell me about it.
Matt Holland, DVM: Well, harkening back to my time is spent in DC working on the hill, knowing what influences legislation. You’re talking about smoke breaks, well, who gets access to the people who make laws? We don’t have to get into that. That could be an entirely …
Renee Machel: Yeah, yeah.
The Importance of Mental Health
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: One other thing that I would throw in there too, when it relates to systemic change, I honestly think that there has to be at some point more transparency and clarity around what Matt said in regard to putting in the work as it relates to wellbeing, as it relates to being burnout free. The hospital can decrease the caseload, they can implement a lot of different measures, but I don’t think that alone, and I don’t think we’re saying that, but I don’t think that can really solve the issue. There is so much self-work that has to be done, and if we’re not able to go and say, hey, I have this problem as an individual, I have this challenge on a problem, I have this challenge, this growth opportunity as a veterinary technician or veterinarian, and I’m going to go to work on this thing, just like I would have in veterinary school. One of our student representatives from Purdue, Julianna Frenette, says that she works as hard on her wellbeing as she would for an A on an exam in veterinary school. That mentality, that mindset can’t be not talked about. Sometimes I believe that maybe we’re, not sugarcoating what it takes, I know it’s different for everyone in that for Person A maybe they only need a walk, or for Person A maybe they only need an extra vacation a year, but I think that sometimes the solutions that are very mainstream are very superficial as to what it really takes to solve some of the life and veterinary challenges that you may have as an individual. For me, personally, I’m not sure that a gym membership, or extra vacation, or sleeping an extra two or three hours would have literally gotten me to where I am today. Oftentimes we think about those blanket strategies that are out there, it’s like take more vacation, work less hours, or do this or that, and those things are all good. I love vacation. I really do want to go back to Jamaica again, just live there for the rest of my life.
Renee Machel: Yeah. Yeah, it’s kind of a watered-down approach, right?
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: It is a watered-down approach. I read 60 books in 10 months, and till this day, I have 180 books behind me on my bookshelf. I’ve got, I believe, over 50 books on my audio book, my Amazon audible phone platform. I’ve got 20 something books on my Kindle. I go to work for my wellbeing, and it just makes sense. It’s very, very basic to me that the version of Quincy, right, I’ve got the same overall mental health, I’ve got the same upbringing, and I’ve got the same challenges that have if there’s a version of me who doesn’t do any of that, and there’s a version of me who does all of that, the version that does all of that is going to be more effective when times get tough. When COVID comes, when you got to do three or four euthanasias, or you had a day where three or four people call out, and you’ve got to do more work, and you end up staying late at the hospital, I’ve got healthy ways to process that because I went to town. Because I’ve been taking massive action over the past four or five years, and most of the people who I know are able to handle life’s challenges and struggles, who were able to see advantages and disadvantages, who were able to find opportunity in chaos, who were able to get better instead of bitter, who were able to grow through life, instead of go through life, they put in a significant amount of work. So, I always challenge people that if you’ve got a challenge out there, first and foremost, my heart goes out to you because I know how dark and difficult things can be.
Renee Machel: Do you know what I hear? Quincy, it’s the client with the allergy case who comes and says I’ve tried everything. Right, so when we’re talking about wellbeing, if we look at ourselves as the clients who come to us and say, “My dog has allergies, I’ve tried everything” and we say “okay, what did you try?” And they said, “I gave him steroids last week.” It’s a lack of effort in some ways. It’s persistence, it’s perseverance. It’s having the support system, it’s doing the work, I call it life work. Like you said, the time that we’ve invested in our own wellbeing, as well as other people’s, it’s not going to be solved in a day, but it can be started in a day. You’ve got to have the mindset that it’s okay to weave, it’s okay to fall back to a default, and recognize that you’re human. It’s going to happen, but can you get back up and keep going? Can you continue forth to where if today or this hour, you didn’t make the best choice, can you make your next choice better? Wellbeing is a state of mind. It’s a state of being, and it largely starts with choices. If you can keep making different choices that support your wellbeing, even if you make a choice and it’s very default, maybe you snap at a coworker, or maybe you snapped at a loved one, and then that fueled a fight and then that fueled a sleepless night, and then that fueled a really bad day at work tomorrow, right? You can in reflection recognize that that’s an area where I can’t change the past, but can I make a better choice next time?
Matt Holland, DVM: This discussion around work reminds me of a song that was playing last night. I think the line went, “I never minded working hard, it’s who I’m working for.” My first thought was, oh, you know, good boss, bad boss. Or good company, bad company. But then I thought, well, what if that means working for myself? You know how many of us in the veterinary field give ourselves away to the detriment of our own self-care? You know we work harder for other people, other animals, than we work for ourselves, and is that formula sustainable?
Renee Machel: You’re right, we’re the caregivers. Whether it’s caregivers in the veterinary industry or work with Dr. Feldman, who comes from the first responders and the industry of military, police, and ambulance EMTs, we know that through all these other different industries, caregivers absolutely do that. What a really sound message is the oxygen mask theory, you can’t give what you don’t have. So, it’s high time that we as veterinary professionals start to prioritize ourselves first so that we can better serve the animals, so that we can better serve our community, and our industry. Because without it we deplete. It’s a disservice to not only ourselves, but to the people around us.
Collaborative Efforts in Veterinary Wellbeing
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Yeah, and I think that one thing that we kind of understand at Get MotiVETed and that a lot of people in the profession understand, especially the thought leaders and the speakers who speak on wellbeing, the different wellbeing organizations out there, is the multifaceted approach. But I also think that in terms of systemic change a lot of people still don’t even know. Maya Angelou has a quote that says, do the best that you can until you know better and then when you know better do better. But for me, for example, it was almost by chance that I came across the information, almost by chance that I came across the wellbeing information. I had to go to the AVMA Veterinary Leadership Conference to learn about terms like compassion fatigue and burnout. I found out about it there. I saw that they had the Future Leaders Program where they’re talking about this and that and other, and it wasn’t my hospital organization who brought to me this whole toolbox of information and knowledge that can really help you get your way in life in veterinary medicine, it was almost by chance that I discovered those things. So, a big part of getting motivated to mission is to do whatever it takes to reach everybody. To do whatever it takes to reach the corner of the world, the veterinary hospital that’s out in the middle of nowhere, to make sure that they’ve got the opportunity to learn about this stuff, and while they’re slaving away trying to help every animal and client that they can. Oftentimes, it’s not that people are choosing lack of effort or choosing poor wellbeing or pseudo-wellbeing or whatever it happens to be, it’s just that the information isn’t out there. That this is the base, this is the foundation of what it takes to get yourself from point A, which may be a struggle, to point B. For example, before this podcast recording, I was on the phone calling hospitals. It’s not the most fun work. It may not be the most effective way of reaching a large amount of people, but we mean business. We mean business, and we will do whatever it takes to reach those people so that they can hear the stories, so that they can get access to the information that may be life changing for them.
Matt Holland, DVM: You mentioned that you stumbled upon some potentially life changing information by chance. I feel the same way for me. I found the most help through a woman named Dr. Michele Gaspar. She’s with Vets4Vets that I mentioned earlier, and she also happens to be Chicago-based. So, when I was struggling and not finding improvement through the means that I had been told would help, she took the time and energy to really understand what I was going through and really look for trained professionals who could work with me and help me. I can’t imagine many other scenarios where I would have, I feel, stumbled on that information. Sometimes it takes a little bit of luck too, I suppose.
Renee Machel: Yeah, I’m so happy to hear that you were able to connect with someone. I think whether you had the intention to meet with her or whether, you know, seek and you shall find, if you had even the slightest inclination that this isn’t working, that I need to find something else, I think that’s important. Rather than just accepting, like I said earlier, this is just how it is, and I’m just going to live my life like this. Who knows, maybe it’s going to be a really short life. It sounds like we’ve all had some pretty dark days, but that tiniest inclination that says I need to find something else, this isn’t working, and to go about it in the right way, and to just keep lifting those rocks.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yeah. I heard you just say what we need to do in order to move forward just a little bit, and I heard Quincy say earlier that when I asked about what needs to change in the system, he said maybe a little bit has changed, but there is more to go. Maybe this is just a different way of asking that same question. What is the profession doing? Well, and what can or should it do better?
Renee Machel: I think having these conversations is a fantastic start. So, we know that there’s the Wellbeing Summit, right? We know that there are companies and organizations that are not just having the conversation and bringing together these people and highlighting them, like Dr. Gaspar, the more individuals that we have that’s where it’s this merging approach through individuals and through leadership that will eventually revolutionize things from the people. It’s the merging approach to where, if you think of it, almost like, this is going to be fun. Have you guys watched X-Men where there is Cerebro, and he puts on Super, you haven’t seen X-Men?
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: No
Renee Machel: Stop it. Oh, my God.
Matt Holland, DVM: No.
Renee Machel: Oh, okay. Oh my gosh. Okay, so the movie X-Men, Xavier is telepathic, I believe. He puts on this machine, and he’s able to connect with all of the mutants on the globe. All of these little lights light up in this almost like an auditorium, and you think about it like that, right? So, there’s all these little, tiny individuals that if we begin to highlight and shed light on, they bring the light and the darkness kind of fades. You have the individuals, and you have the leaders, and it all merges together. So, I think that the vendor industry is doing the conversations. We’re having these conversations like this podcast right here. Creating the budget lines to where people are willing to invest in it. Bringing people together, opening it up to not just veterinarians. Whether it’s statistics, research studies, or whether it’s just the availability for a technician or a veterinary assistant, someone who’s non licensed, a kennel staff member, a receptionist, a boarding staff member, to be able to access the same types of tools and services that the veterinarians get to access. Those things are starting to happen. It’s a big shift to turn. I think that those things are really great to get that moving in the right direction. Blending a lot of the resources that are out there. With Get MotiVETed, Quincy and I work on a collaborative plane in the space of wellbeing. We don’t operate from a place of competitiveness. We believe that the mission is to minimize if not eliminate poor wellbeing, and by doing that, it’s going to take as many possible people. So, to us, it’s more of a movement and if you can join, whether it’s joining the Get MotiVETed movement, or joining the wellbeing movement, eventually, magic will happen, and it will take on this life of its own. And it will become easier and easier for people to begin to infuse their practices, infuse their universities with curriculum and just spaced-out time or whatever works for that organization that would make it a little bit better. We’re not asking for things to do a 360 overnight, but we’re saying can we get 10% happier, can we get x degrees better. There’s a Zen proverb, I think Quincy alluded to as another thing earlier, it’s you chop wood, carry water, you reach enlightenment, you chop wood, you carry water. Even when things are good, like the dogs, if you get better, it’s because they’re taking the meds. Keep taking the meds, don’t stop the therapy because you’re better. Right? So, if you’ve reached a state of wellbeing, keep going, and keep sharing, and keep having these conversations. We don’t want that cog to get rusted and freeze up. We want to see it continuing to move forward and become even more lubricated.
Matt Holland, DVM: I agree completely. I’m just going to go back to the very first part of your answer, the X-Men part, because it reminded me, I already took it to politics once, so once you break the seal, I’ll do it again. It reminds me of the Amanda Gorman poem from last week where she says at the very end: For there is always light, if only we’re brave enough to see it, If only we’re brave enough to be it. I cheated and pulled that up during the recording. I didn’t have that memorized. I think that it is right, if we can be our own light, then it’ll be a lot easier for the profession to light up, too.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Yeah, and I think that, as Renee alluded to, that a lot is being done in terms of wellbeing and mental health in the veterinary community. I know the AAVMC they’ve got basically mental health professionals in all the different veterinary schools. I think that’s just absolutely fantastic. I know that AVMA is doing stuff, Zoetis is doing a lot of stuff, VIN is obviously doing a lot of stuff, and there are a lot of different people popping up. So, I believe that just through time alone, we will eventually get to where we need to be if we just stay the course. But in terms of the speed by which that will happen, the amount of struggle, stress, burnout, and maybe even lives lost, in terms of those numbers of people who suffer over the next whatever the time frame happens to be, until we get it together, that we just have to remember a few things that effort is grossly underrated. I think that that comes from Gary Vee. That it’s not going to be easy, there are going to be a lot of challenges along the way, and to remember that better days are ahead, and for us to really start to empower each other, that we can have the lives that we want for ourselves, both as veterinary professionals, and as humans, humans first, and then the veterinary professional second. I really do believe in, I’ll go back to this one more time that I think we’re going to have to change the definitions of wellbeing and what they are in order for people to really take to them on a mass scale, which is what we really need for people to be happy. I still think there’s a huge stigma as it relates to wellbeing as being something that people need to do who just want to be more Zen or something like that, right. That mental health is for crazy people. That stigma is still out there. Especially for a lot of the leaders of the hospitals where they see this, say we’ve already got something for that. We’ve already got an EAP [Employee Assistance Program], or you got health insurance. There’s the lack of knowledge of what wellbeing really is, and, to me, it’s the ability to just get your way in life and in veterinary medicine. It is the ability, the set of skills to create the exact life that you want for yourself. I think that when people really get that on a mass scale, that there will be more desire to want to go towards wellbeing, because they’ll realize it’s not for people who want a six pack. It’s not just for people who want to lose weight, or who want to learn how to meditate and do yoga, because not everybody wants to do those things. But as it stands, a lot of the programs that we see in the veterinary schools [I speak at a lot of the veterinary schools] oftentimes they’ll have a wellness program and wellbeing program or whatever it happens to be. It is highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, like physical wellbeing based, and that is going to miss the people who have no desire to jog or do crunches or anything else or do some of those other things. It’s going to completely miss those people. So, I think there needs to be a little bit of reform there in terms of what is wellbeing, and how can each person use that. How is it beneficial to the average Joe who has a pretty good life, like I’m not suicidal, I’m not drinking and driving, I’m not smoking, I’m not going home and yelling at my kids every single day. What wellbeing is still so vitally beneficial, even to that individual, and we have to put it out that way.
Matt Holland, DVM: When we spoke a few weeks ago for the first time, Quincy, I think we talked about how everybody should have a doctor. Everybody should have a dentist. Everybody should have a therapist. Like remove this stigma. It’s not a problem to have a therapist. You know, in some regards, I think it’s a problem to not have a therapist.
Renee Machel: Yeah. That’s the thing. With athletes, you know what America views as successful people, we’ll say, “They have coaches, the coaches have coaches, high performers have coaches. How is it that in our industry coaches are not a thing? How is it in our industry that stigma around therapy is still there?” So, that’s where I think that the conversations do help, because it does break down the barriers and it does connect to people. But it needs to be more because there is still a stigma around mental health and wellbeing and therapy and the approaches that get you to a place of recovery or being well. Like Dr. Hawley said, the leaders in the organizations like the hospital settings, or it’s their time, they have a mindset of well if anyone had time for that, or we have a health insurance plan. Their mindset is that it’s something that it’s not. That wellbeing is something that is your cholesterol is low. We know that the sense of wellbeing is not that. We as veterinary professionals have quality of life discussions with our patients day in and day out. We don’t just talk about their kidney values. We talk about do they feel confident walking around the house as a geriatric patient. Are they fearful, do they live in fear? We look at a holistic view when we’re speaking of the patients. Why can’t we turn that same view on to us? Recognize that the quality of our lives does matter, the quality of our minds matters, and the quality of our experiences matters. Those things all go hand in hand. The ability to raise, the ability to improve our quality of mind, our quality of experience, and our quality of life is available to us through certain tools and strategies. If we can make all of these things interconnected, like the conversations, and the budget line, and the time, and the simple acceptance of it. Just the simple ability to say, “Sure, that’ll work. Do we want to bring that in? Do we want to embrace that? Is it something that maybe I won’t use, but my staff will?” All of those different things. It’s like a big puzzle, and you’ve got to put all of these little pieces in it to make wellbeing happen.
Matt Holland, DVM: Yes. Reminds me of something you both were saying in some of your recent answers. Quincy was talking about how if we stay the course then I think we’re in good shape, but, Renee, what you were just talking about, continuing to put in the work that is also a part of staying the course is actively paying attention to yourself.
Renee Machel: Right. I no longer struggle with anxiety and depression, but I know darn well that I am, we’ll say I don’t know if it is more predisposed or I’m more apt to get, you know, they knock on my door. Susceptible, yeah, I’m more susceptible to them being a bigger part of my life than what say my fiancé is. He’s an entrepreneur, and he goes through many of the things that I go through, but he doesn’t have the same type of anxiety knocking on his door every day. The wellbeing work that I have to do versus the wellbeing work that he has to do looks really different. When we talked to a chief of staff at the practice that I was at, she said, “Wait, you were on anxiety medicine, or you struggled with anxiety?” And I said absolutely, because there’s such a transformation, and so to talk about it, she just talking about it, she’s like, “Wait, so there’s an option to be less anxious?” I think she was in her 50s. She was like, oh, I can do these different things, and I can create the space in my life for a different type of work. I can create the space in my life for a different type of relationship. I can create the space in my life to change my financial picture. I can create the space in my life to visit Disney more, because I freaking love Disney. Those things are all available. That’s how people connect. That’s how people reduce the stigma is that there are different ways and there are people still in the roles that you’re in even with those struggles. Quincy and I talk about all the time that through this podcast, someone out there listening might resonate with Matt and his story. There’s something about him that they say, “Oh, well maybe I can be a veterinary professional, or maybe I can be a board member to a company even though I experienced this. I think that there’s something really powerful in knowing that it’s possible to do something different and that when we look back at the system, you know, me just being a tech. I could think of little old me I’m just a tech from Michigan, but Wayne Dyer was from Michigan, and in the wellbeing space, Wayne Dyer was a psychologist for many years, and then he became an author. He’s almost like a godfather when it comes to the space of wellbeing. Like Dr. Hawley said, to take ourselves out of the victim mode, to really empower ourselves, to empower each other, it takes a lot to believe in yourself, but if we can believe in each other, sometimes that’s a little bit easier. Sometimes that’s a little bit more available. If we can believe in each other, and if we can root for each other, that just might get you off the ground, and get you sailing where you need to go, and then your self-belief kicks in. Dr. Hawley has a fantastic way of elevating people. When we look at what bonds people, when you go into a practice, it’s very common that people are sharing stories over the weekend. There are studies. We have 50,000 thoughts a day, and 50% of those thoughts are negative and 80% of those thoughts are repetitive. So, our self-talk is not serving us, and therefore the conversations we’re having at home, or in the practice, you’re bonding over negativity. You kind of one-up, oh, wait until you hear about this client that I had, or wait until you hear about what my husband did. What if we flip the script, really simply saying what are you grateful for? What was the highlight of your weekend? What has your partner done for you that really took something off of your plate? What has your team member done for you that’s taken something off of your plate and made your day easier? Can we bring gratitude into these things, these kind of conversations?
Matt Holland, DVM: That reminds me of something we did around my dinner table growing up. We would share a favorite part of the day. Growing up, I didn’t think much of it. It actually was kind of annoying when we had to do it. Those things didn’t always come readily to mind. Now, I’m grateful for that practice, because I think it was training my little brain to get in that mindset.
Gratitude and Future Aspirations
Matt Holland, DVM: Well, then that’s how we’ll end the show today. What are you grateful for as this new year begins?
Renee Machel: I’m really grateful for the connections that we’ve made along the way. That’s something when we set out, I think it’s a really happy byproduct. When we began speaking, that was sometimes terrifying, but something that always helped ground me was just, it’s a conversation and if I can just help one person or inspire one person. We really have made such fantastic connections. I really appreciate meeting people like you and Jordan and bringing this information to people’s fingertips. That’s something that I’m very grateful for.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: Absolutely, absolutely. And I’ll leave you all with this. So, one of my favorite books of all time is The Science of Being Great by Wallace Wattles. Read that one over 100 times. There’s a principle at the very end from Ralph Waldo Emerson. He says that, well, Wallace says that the world is perfect, but it’s not yet complete. So, I’ve extrapolated that out and I say that the veterinary profession is perfect the way it is, it’s just not yet complete. There is a grand completed masterpiece that is in our future. He compares it to it can go from the egg to the worm, and from the worms to the fly. I still believe that we’re in the early phases of Veterinary Medicine. It’s really not that old, and it’s already awesome and it has so many awesome parts and so I’m grateful for those. Even in the egg form, but once we hatch out of that, and you go through the cocoon, the worm, or the caterpillar phase, however you want to look at it, once we get to the butterfly phase, or the completed form of the veterinary profession, that’s what I’m grateful for. I’m grateful for the masterpiece that is yet to come. I know that it’s coming, be it in 10 years or 100 years. I’m so grateful for that moment and for the people who will get to experience the veterinary profession that we’re fighting for right here, right now, in 2021. Right here on this podcast, Matt, Renee, and myself. Maybe someone in 100 years is like, dang, man, they were spot on. So, I’m grateful for that.
Matt Holland, DVM: Okay. Well, if you’re not optimistic after hearing that, then I’m not sure what could do that for you. Thank you, Quincy. Thank you, Renee, for joining us. I hope to talk to you soon.
Renee Machel: Thanks for having us, Matt. And I appreciate you sharing your story with us.
Matt Holland, DVM: All right, thanks.
Quincy Hawley, BS, DVM: It’s been awesome.
Outro
Jordan Benshea: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Veterinary Pulse. Please check the Episode Notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe, and share a review. We welcome feedback and hope you will tune in again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, VINFoundation.org and our social media channels. Thank you for being here. Be well.
