Dr. Lance Roasa shares best practices for contract negotiations based on his almost 10 years of experience helping veterinary colleagues. He covers everything from what to look for in a colleague’s first employment contract, to advice on how to renegotiate a current contract, and what colleagues need to know who are looking to get out of a contract. Learn what BATNA means, the important aspects of knowing how to quantify your value, a helpful resource available on negotiation, and his desire to shed more light on equal pay.
GUEST BIO:
Dr. Lance Roasa
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD is a 2008 graduate of Texas A&M where he was the first student to undertake a 4th year business-track, spending the majority of his clinical training in veterinary business and industry. In 2016 He completed a law degree from the University of Nebraska and his training was centered on the law of small business, taxation and the law of veterinary medicine.
LINKS AND INFORMATION:
- Drip.vet contract negotiation course
- Labor stats
- VIN Foundation Vets4Vets®
- VIN Foundation Model Employment Contract
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: This is one of those topics where just a little bit of training, just a little bit of coaching, just a little bit of advice, can go a tremendously long way and have massive impacts on that veterinarian’s employment contract, their compensation, and basically their happiness.
Jordan Benshea: That is Dr Lance Roasa, a veterinarian, lawyer, and so much more, and this is the VIN Foundation’s Veterinary Pulse Podcast. I’m Jordan Benshea, VIN Foundation’s Executive Director. Join me as we talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics and share stories, stories that connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community. This podcast is made possible by individuals like you who donate to the VIN Foundation. Thank you. Please check the episode notes for bios, links and information mentioned.
Welcoming Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD
Jordan Benshea: Hi Lance, welcome back.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Hello. Great to be here.
Jordan Benshea: Well, I’m super stoked that you’re here to talk about a topic that I have heard from a lot of people and a lot of colleagues that they really have a lot of questions about, and it’s sort of this unknown topic, which is, or unknown knowledge, which is contract negotiation. We’re at this time of year where fourth years are going to be graduating, and they’re probably looking at negotiating contracts for their first full time employment as doctors. And it seemed like this was probably a really good time to sit down with you and kind of get some of your best practices.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me, and this is actually one of my favorite topics to talk about. It’s one of those topics that basically affects every veterinarian that’s going to be employed at any point in their career.
Jordan Benshea: Right, right.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Secondly, this is one of those topics where just a little bit of training, just a little bit of coaching, just a little bit of advice, can go a tremendously long way and have massive impacts on that veterinarian’s employment contract, their compensation, and basically their happiness,
Jordan Benshea: Right, and I almost feel that if you set yourself up for success out of the gate, it just pays dividends throughout your career, right, because if you negotiate that well in the beginning, really, you have the capability to do so much better.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, even an extra five or $6,000 early out of school will multiply year after year after year. Also, to keep in mind Jordan, that’s disposable income that a veterinarian can save, can put into an emergency fund, they can pay down debt with. But over the course of the career 25, 30, 35 years, that adds up to real money, just a few 1000 more dollars.
Jordan Benshea: Absolutely, and I feel like if, you know, as they continue to grow in their career, if they’re able to, you know, if they start at a higher level, then they’re forever going higher, higher, higher, right? Else, they’ve got to make up that somehow, right? And that’s hard, that’s really hard.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: It’s pretty rare that anybody takes a decrease in pay without, you know, significant decrease in responsibilities or hours, and so you’re exactly right. You build on the salary that you already have, and starting at a higher salary, starting at higher benefits, allows you to build over and over and over on top of it.
Best Practices for New Graduates
Jordan Benshea: Absolutely so let’s just get right into it. What are some of the best practices for a new veterinary school graduate negotiating their first full time employment contract?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, so actually you said something that caught my ear earlier. So you said, you know, that fourth years we’re entering that time of year, you know, the spring where fourth years, and you’re right, traditionally from January, February, March, April, that’s when fourth years really started receiving offers and started reviewing the contracts and ultimately signing. But in the last several years, four, five, six years, that signing period has really drastically ratcheted up. So you know, we’re seeing third years and even second years being presented offers and contracts while they’re in veterinary school, they have years to go until they graduate. Quite honestly, most fourth years, come their spring semester, have either already, you know, entered the match for their internship, signed up for advanced education, or they have a contract signed. And so really, I feel like this is, you know, the things we’re talking about today are really aimed at first year, second year, third year, veterinary students, and also those veterinarians that are renegotiating their contract. And so I think we should talk a little bit about that, or actually a lot about that renegotiation and June though, May and June are still those traditional times where veterinarians do change jobs, because those one year contracts are up and they’re, you know, and they’re moving on to their next job. So we are hitting the timing right, but you know, the fourth years, I really wish they would wait a little bit more and pump the brakes on signing these contracts, you know, until they fully get close to the finish line in veterinary school and really see what the market’s going to do, right, until they graduate.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, that’s a really good point and I appreciate you bringing that up, especially because, I mean, if we’ve seen nothing over the last four years, we have seen change.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: So I’ve been doing this since 2014, 15, you know, seeing veterinary contracts and helping veterinarians through, you know, their employment process. The changes have been remarkable just in that short period of time. I mean, a lot has changed in the world, and a lot has changed in the veterinary profession in that amount of time, you know, but the rate that these contracts, these offers, the compensation, the employment scene within veterinary medicine is evolving, it is really mind boggling. If you take a step back and look at it, this is no longer the, you know, the handshake agreement, you know, and
Jordan Benshea: My word is Oak.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, my word is oak, but the profession dealt with for years and years, you know, we’ve seen, essentially, a monumental shift in the way that employment is carried out in veterinary medicine.
Jordan Benshea: Alright, well, then I would say, let’s dive right in and talk about what should first year, second year, third years, and, you know, we would hope fourth years, think about as they’re talking about their first full time negotiation and contracts.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, so this is coming from someone that, you know, that has helped a lot of veterinarians into their employment contract but also helped a lot of veterinarians get out of their employment contract so it’s kind of like
Jordan Benshea: Equally as important.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Equally important, you know, and I think it’s very Important to note that a large number of first year veterinarians don’t stay with that practice. I don’t have good data on it, but I would expect it to be 50, 60, you know, 65% of those veterinarians aren’t going to stay in their contract. So as we discuss getting in the contract, we really got to discuss what’s it look like if we have to break up? How do we get out of it? Now, getting to that situation is probably, you know, kind of my first tidbit of advice is, we don’t want to get in that situation where we have to leave employment, you know, inside of a year for reasons that are basically outside of our control.
Interviewing and Evaluating Practices
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: So my first tidbit of advice for any veterinarian looking for a job is really take the mindset that you’re interviewing the practice, that you’re checking the practice out. Does this practice, you know, does the culture, does the medicine, does the communication style, do the people mesh with you, so you hopefully will be happy in six months, eight months, a year, two years, three years down the road. For my purposes, that’s much more important, and I really want to point out before we even start talking about compensation and benefits and all these legal terms, we want to keep in mind that employment is much more than just money and benefits, it’s where we spend the majority of our day, it’s where the people that we see and deal with, you know, all day long. I mean, we see these, the four walls of the practice, more than we see our own family, our own pets our own kids, you know, etc. So really, you know, focus on what I call the soft issues of the practice. Does the practice culture mesh with you? And really take the mindset that I’m going to check out the practice, but I’m also going to check out a lot of practices, and Jordan, that kind of leads me into, you know, my second tidbit of advice, is do lots of interviews, get lots of offers, interview at multiple different practices. Even though you may not be 100% interested in that practice, give them a chance and go through the interview process, if nothing else, just for practice, just so you get better at it. So, you know, one thing that I’ve noticed over the years and owning practices and interviewing veterinarians and interviewing others, the first time that someone interviews and negotiates, I say it’s kind of like surgery. It’s painful for everyone involved. It is. It’s fortuitous, and so, you know, interviewing is kind of like surgery. That first one, your cortisol and your anxiety is through the roof, the second one it’s a little bit better, the third one, it’s a little bit better. By the time you do four or five or six of them, it’s, you know, it’s old hat, it’s natural, and that cortisol and anxiety, there’s no way it’s going to come showing through. So, you know, get that practice with other hospitals, get that practice with jobs that you’re not exactly 100% excited about, but give them a chance. Give it everything you’ve got.
Understanding BATNA in Negotiations
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: But what it’s doing, from a technical negotiation standpoint, it’s giving you this thing called BATNA. BATNA stands for best alternative to negotiated agreement. Basically any negotiation book that you read, there’s entire chapters or sections on this concept of BATNA, and one of the best ways to negotiate more effectively is to develop options, to develop your options. And so BATNA, in layperson’s terms, basically means, what are your options? If this negotiation doesn’t work out, where else can you go? So strengthening your options, strengthen your BATNA, one of the strongest ways to negotiate effectively.
Jordan Benshea: That’s really, I think, so true with everything in life, right? The things that we’re not used to doing, we become really uncomfortable with, right? And it’s so easy to be really uncomfortable the first time we do it, and then everything with practice, whether it be surgery or negotiating a contract or starting a new workout or whatever it might be, at first it can be really, really scary, and then you do it more and more, and you just get more comfortable with it, right? And I think knowing your options is exactly that, it’s getting comfortable with what might be uncomfortable now, but can pay, as we said in the beginning, huge dividends later.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: It takes a strong veterinarian and a strong, you know, student to go out and put themselves on the line. Most people want to get through that interview and move on to something else as soon as possible. But basically, coming back and being you know, “glutton for punishment”. will pay dividends when it comes to finding the right job, getting the right compensation, getting the right benefits package,
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, I love that, because it helps them get more comfortable with it. So say a, you know, a new veterinarian, or potentially first year, second year, third year, at this point, are given a contract and they want to try and interview at multiple different places. How do you also delicately balance those different places if you think they’re going to talk to each other, or, you know, if owners know each other and they’re talking about different people, they’re interviewing, how do you manage that?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, so great question, and super common question that comes up every time that I speak to a group about negotiation, and I think something that many members of the audience will often do is they’ll mix up personal relationships, romantic relationships with business relationships, and so, you know, it feels kind of dirty to go interview somewhere else. It kind of feels like you’re cheating on that first practice, maybe that practice that you were at with high school, in high school, or undergraduate, but this is not a romantic relationship. This is a business relationship, so it is perfectly okay and acceptable to go see what else is out there. It’s not acceptable to do that if you’re in a romantic relationship.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, we’re not covering that topic here.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: We’re not covering that type of negotiation here. And so unwinding, separating those two is the first, you know, first thing to do, kind of get over the fact that it doesn’t feel right because you’re mixing up types of relationships. The second thing is, and for good, bad or worse, you know, veterinary medicine is not in that place where a lot of practitioners are talking anymore. And so, you know, I have very little fear about interviewing at multiple different practices and having the practitioners talk, and if they do that kind of creates a bit of a test for me, Jordan, because if they do, and they said, “well, you went and interviewed at, you know, the practice down the road and that’s wrong”. It’s like, well, are you jealous of me doing that? Now, what’s important in four months, five months, a year, or two years, if you’re, you know, if we’re already displaying some jealous tendencies. And so, you know, a lot of the negotiation process, I want you to keep in mind, is really testing the other side, getting to know what type of person they are, what their behavioral characteristics are, and is this a person that you can enter into a long term relationship with? And that’s a really important point that I want to drive home, Jordan.
Relationship-Based Negotiation
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: What we’re talking about today is relationship based negotiation, and that is completely different than transactional negotiation. So some of your listeners probably signed on today thinking that we were going to talk about transactional negotiation, which is basically buying a car, right? Buying a used car, buying something off of Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist, you know, you give them the money, they give you the item, the car, and that’s the last time you ever see that person again. That’s a transaction, that’s a transactional negotiation. The thing that’s happening is haggling, where you’re haggling back in price, essentially haggling back and forth, essentially over the price. What we’re describing when we’re talking about employment relationships in veterinary medicine, this is a relationship based negotiation. After you do the negotiation, that’s when the true relationship starts. That’s when you really have to spend a lot of time with that person, so approaching this from the fact that we are building a relationship, we are getting to know that other person, and also that person’s getting to know us, our needs, and our wants. This is what helps build that relationship. So that’s the mindset that we want to go in thinking about, not, hey, I’ve got to go haggle over the price.
Jordan Benshea: And that’s a really interesting approach, and very good, I think, distinction, because so often we think of it as, just, as you’re saying, buying a car. It’s transactional, just trying to get the best price, but then at the end of the day, you’re done, right? You’re not at the car dealer, buying a car, and then having lunch with that person next week, right? And versus this, is you’re just, you’re beginning to enter into this. And to your point earlier, when you’re talking about the culture, like really making sure that this is a good fit for you in many ways, right, because what you’re prepping for in veterinary school is the medicine, but what you’re experiencing when you’re out are people, a lot of people, right? And all of us people come with all our own stuff, right? And then on top of that, the inner office politics, and the almost sales approach with clients for those that are practicing in a practice, and there’s so much more that goes with that. Or if they’re going into another area of industry or academia, there’s always going to be people there, right? That’s the common trend among all of it, and so that’s a really important point to make sure that you’re realizing, that, is this somebody you want to enter into a business relationship with?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and when people call to say, “hey, I need out of my contract. I need out of this employment”, it’s rarely because they didn’t get enough money, or they didn’t get the right benefits. Almost every time it’s, “I cannot work with these people anymore, I cannot, this is a toxic workplace, I do not fit in here, I don’t fit in with the clients”. This is what causes the consternation. So I, you know, to almost belabor the point, it’s really about finding the practice that fits well for you, and happens to have the right compensation and benefits and other factors that we all have bills to pay.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, I had a colleague recently tell me that she, you know, she really enjoys proxy medicine. She does work in a practice as an associate and she has been to multiple practices, just trying to find the right fit, and it’s probably not the right fit of the animals, right? It’s the right fit for the people in the practice, and so that’s really important.
Tips for Renegotiating Contracts
Jordan Benshea: So as we were talking about sort of those that are, you know, not new grads, but those that have been in the workforce, and they want to renegotiate, what are some tips for renegotiation?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: This is uh, so as salaries have risen drastically over the last five or six years, I’m seeing a lot of this, and I’m seeing a lot of, you know, pretty extreme discontent among older, you know, more experienced practitioners that aren’t getting, aren’t being paid as much as you know a new graduate, you know, they have 3, 4, 5 years of experience. With the new graduates getting hefty signing bonuses, higher salaries, more time off, better benefits, you know, and that’s really, you know for rightful reasons, problematic for those that have been there for longer. So my first step of advice to those folks that are renegotiating is, know what the statistics are, know what the average starting salary for full time associates are at this point. And by the way Jordan, for 2021 graduates, this is the last year that we have data for small animal exclusive veterinarians, the national average for starting salaries is $103,881, and so just a touch under $104,000. Very few people, experienced veterinarians, will guess that, that starting salary is that high, but that’s the national average. Across the board, certain locations are certainly higher than that. In fact, I’m no genius at statistics, but 50% of the locations are higher. It’s quite a surprise to a lot of experienced associates that learned, that is the starting salary for first year veterinarians at this point. Obviously, with experience, you know, that salary should go up from there, so know that data and know what is happening out there, so when you do go to ask you want to be prepared with data. So when we’re making negotiation stances, the best way to do it, other than, you know, developing lots and lots of options, is to come with data. If you say stuff like, “I feel like I deserve more”, or “it’s not fair that they’re getting more than I’m getting” or “I want more”, those are not solid arguments for, you know, for that employer. Coming with, “hey, I went ahead and did my research. I looked up what the starting salary is. I looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I know what veterinarians in this geographical area are making on average. I had a chance to look at what other practices in the area are offering, and for these reasons, I can establish that a fair salary would be X”, that’s a statement that will move an employer, not necessarily I want more. The second thing that will move employers, for those that are already practicing is, what is your production? And so I know a lot of us are paid on salaries, a lot of us are paid on some sort of production hybrid, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to how much money that the veterinarian is bringing in, and are they supporting themselves. So knowing your production numbers and knowing how that’s going, even if you’re paid on salary, makes your contract negotiation go oh so much better. If you are not producing and not able to meet those production thresholds, you know, then that’s a problem. That means we’ve got to go back to the drawing board and look how we can become productive for the following year. But if you already are and most veterinarians are meeting those production thresholds, then having being armed with that data makes the contract negotiation go much easier.
Production-Based Compensation
Jordan Benshea: So I think you’ve just touched on something there that I know a lot of veterinary students struggle with, which is weight production. Like, that’s not, you know, when they go into contracts, that’s something that I know that a lot of students are thinking, like, I could really use some benefit there. Could you give a little snippet understanding that we could do an entire episode on just production, on its own?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Production based compensation packages and so the way that I kind of think of it, Jordan, is there’s three basic ways that a veterinarian can get paid. They can get paid on straight salary, they can be paid on straight production, or they can be paid in some sort of hybrid, I call them base or production hybrid models. Base or production hybrid models are extremely common throughout all types of private practice. I would estimate probably 65% of all veterinarians are paid on some sort of base or production hybrid, and so for those students that are out there, it is one of those things that there’s a great likelihood that you are going to be paid on, with some production component to your salary, your wage payments, your compensation. And so, yes, we can do an entire section on this exclusively, but you know, know for now that that is something that we do have to think about. We do have to track, regardless of whether you’re paid on straight salary or a production model.
Jordan Benshea: Okay, so those that are looking to renegotiate, one, know your stats, look at the Labor Bureau stats there and then also know what your production is.
Approaching Negotiation Collaboratively
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yes, and the easiest way that I find to do this, are to restart the negotiation process. This actually works for everyone as well, is you want the other side to come to the table in a collaborative posture. And so I see a lot of veterinarians that kind of get to their wits end, their emotional end, and you know, basically, lose some emotional cool when they’re going to call this meeting. And the way that you call the meeting on, hey, we need to talk about my compensation, actually has a lot to do with how the meeting goes, and so let’s take a step back for a second where I’m going to go back to relationships here. So let’s say my wife’s a veterinarian, by the way, she’s an internship trained equine veterinarian. Let’s say that she’s getting ready to go to work one day, we’re both getting ready, and, you know, she’s getting her lunch together and she looks over at me and she says, “tonight, after the kids go to bed, we got to talk”, and she puts her apple and her diet coke in her lunch, you know, her lunch bag, and she walks out the door. What’s the rest of my day look like?
Jordan Benshea: It’s looking great. It’s looking calm.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: All in the pit of the stomach. I mean, you go through just a entire flash of emotion, so don’t ever do that to your significant other, right?
Jordan Benshea: Don’t do that to my husband, got it, okay, Lance, right.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: You know, so the natural human nature is to, you know, go through the thought process. What did I do? What did I not do? To basically start creating an alibi and also create defense mechanisms.
Setting the Stage for Negotiation
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: So she says this, and I’m going to say that the whole day my brain, you know, in its fight or flight finest, is thinking about this conversation that tonight. Now let’s take that over to the negotiation or renegotiation posture, if, you know, the associate veterinarian says, “next week we have to talk about my compensation. Next week we have to renegotiate this contract”, or if you just even say it more nicely, “hey, can we have a meeting next week, I need to renegotiate my contract”. If you say that to the employer, then they’ve got the whole week to prepare their defense, to pull the numbers, to talk to their partner, to talk to, you know, their other leadership team, and find ways for them to tell you no. And so they’re basically coming to the table in a defensive posture, because every, I mean, everybody, wants to, you know, pay as little as possible. That’s just human nature, and they know that you’re going to be asking for something.
Collaborative Approach to Feedback
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: So we want them to come to the table in a very collaborative posture. And so even the way that you ask for that meeting, you know, saying something like, “hey, I’m looking for my annual review. I’m looking for some feedback on how I’m doing in the hospital. I’m hoping that we can review how this year went”, these are things asking for feedback and will bring them to the table in a way that they are thinking about that meeting in a positive fashion. Now, hopefully they have nothing but good things to say about “hey, the clients love you. The team loves you. Patients love you. Everything’s going well”, okay. If everything’s going well, here are some things that we can talk about, as far as my compensation goes and so, you know, giving them the opportunity to start the meeting in a positive fashion changes the entirety of the conversation.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, that’s so true across the board as humans, right? How we start with any sort of conversation determines how it’s going to go, and if you start with the defensive, this needs to happen, I’m coming at you like this, immediately our guard is going to be up, right? So I really like taking that relationship approach and applying it while it’s not personal, it’s business, still applying it from a strategic, psychological perspective of, let’s just set ourselves up for success here, right? And probably, I mean, if you say I’m looking for some feedback, I’m thinking the owner might be thinking, “God, is she going to be asking for some more money”, but that’s still a different approach than you know,
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: You know,
Jordan Benshea: I need to discuss it.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: An experienced leader, you know, is going to know what is happening, but they still appreciate that approach much more than the demand approach.
Jordan Benshea: Of course, yeah, because it comes from this collaborative, you know, I’d like to get some feedback, which is opening it up to I’d like to hear what you’re thinking about how I’m doing my job, versus I need, demanding this. So I like that approach.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, quite honestly, it’s a refresher. So those that have, you know, managed multiple practices, or, you know, owned a practice before, it’s rare that someone comes to you and says, “I’d like to improve, I’d like to work on some things. I’d like to get your feedback”, and, I mean, that’s a very refreshing approach versus the alternative.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, and honestly, probably one we can use in all aspects of our life, right?
Importance of Knowing Your Interests
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: At the end of the day, what we’re trying to do is, you know, is get our interest met, and so that’s another huge component of negotiation training is before we get into that meeting, sit down and list your interest. What do you want to take away from it? If you don’t know what you want going into the meeting, there’s no way that the other side is going to give you what you want. I mean, they’re not going to read your mind, and so sitting down with that interest list and thinking through, you know, this, these are the things that are very important to me. And here’s what’s really interesting, Jordan, is that interest list, it’s obviously different for everyone. I can’t, you know, tell you what anyone’s is going to be, but it changes over time, you know. So at certain points in your career you’re going to value certain things about your job. In other parts of your career, you’re going to value different things, and that’s completely cool, but again, the only person that can know that is you, not your spouse, not your mentor, definitely not your boss. It’s really a soul searching exercise that every person has to do.
Jordan Benshea: Okay, so we’ve gone through sort of new grads, first time doctors.
Navigating Contract Exits
Jordan Benshea: We’ve gone through those looking to renegotiate, a part that might come with the renegotiation, or after, is there’s definitely some colleagues that are looking to get out of the contract.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah. So one of the first things that I look at, that I was trained to look at, when reviewing a contract, someone getting into the contract, is how to get out of the contract. And this is something that I’ve seen change drastically in veterinary medicine just in the last four or five years. I think it has something to do with the influx of, you know, of corporate medicine in the veterinary medicine. It certainly has something to do with Covid and the job market associated with veterinary medicine. But at the end of the day, what practices are trying to do, some practices are trying to do, is lock that associate in to their employment, and they do that with a couple of different ways. One is signing bonuses, and I’ve written extensively on signing bonuses and the strings that are attached to those signing bonuses, and that’s kind of the carrot based approach is, “hey, we’re going to give you this money, but if you leave, you got to pay this money back to us”. The other way that they lock veterinarians in, and this is not every practice, this is some practices. The way that some practices lock veterinarians into their employment is they create a contract for a term, meaning that the veterinarian can’t leave when they need to leave, when they want to leave. And so what the veterinarian is looking for getting into the contract and also getting out of the contract is for an at-will termination cause. An at-will termination provision, basically, it says that you can leave the employment at any time for any reason or for no reason at all, subject to a certain amount of days of notice. That’s what we’re looking for in the contract before somebody even gets in the contract, and that’s what we’re looking for if someone wants to get out of the contract. If that provision is not in there that allows the practice to sue for breach of contract. And I’m seeing more and more contracts that have, that don’t have this at-will termination provision, which leaves the veterinarian in a very bad place. It’s a job they don’t want, it’s a job that they want to leave, if they do leave they’ve been threatened with a lawsuit. That lawsuit is for a lot of money, hundreds of 1000s of dollars, so they are legitimately trapped in this situation, and Jordan, this is where VIN Foundations resources really come in, you know, through the Vets4Vets resources. But this is where I see veterinarians that are really struggling with mental health and even suicidal thoughts.
Jordan Benshea: No, it is really. We see a lot of colleagues who are reaching out and just struggling because they want to leave their practice and they don’t know how. And, you know, it boggles my mind, because why would you as an employer want somebody there that’s unhappy and doesn’t want to be there, right? I mean, we all know that people that are not in a good emotional, mental state don’t do good work across the board, right? I mean, meaning, it’s challenging for them to do so because they’re unhappy. When we’re unhappy, we don’t make the best decisions, right? When we’re feeling emotionally and mentally stressed and overwhelmed, we are not at our best. So why would you, why, as an employer, would anybody want somebody there that’s in that state, right?
The Reality of At-Will Employment
Jordan Benshea: I mean, if I’m correct, California is an at-will state, right? So irrelevant to the contract, it’s always at-will. Is that correct?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: No, actually, Jordan, that’s a common misconception. And so states that are at-will, and there’s about, there’s varying levels of at-will employment, but that is a state law default, that is what comes into effect if the parties don’t discuss the termination. So a lot of people keep in mind, don’t have written contracts, they just have a handshake agreement, you come to work, I’m going to pay you X. That’s the extent of the conversation, they don’t discuss, “hey, what happens if we need to part ways?”. Well, the state law through the legislature or the court system has been decided that the default, the backstop, is those parties meant at-will employment. Heading over to veterinary contracts, where there actually is a contract, where there actually is paper, ink on paper, and signatures on paper, the parties have talked about that, and so the contract will actually override the state law status of at-will employment. But I’m glad you brought that up, because it’s a question that I get almost literally daily, and it’s a very common misconception,
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, that’s really interesting. Okay, so those that are trying to get out, first and foremost, do you have an at-will contract? And a lot of them are saying no. So if there is the position of, I don’t have an at-will contract, what are the options?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Well, the options are not great, so we would much rather talk about this before someone gets into a contract. I have very few hard and fast rules as an attorney, and one of those rules is, I will not let a client sign a contract that’s not for at-will employment, there has to be a way out of that contract. I feel that strongly about this. If, when I’m working with a veterinarian that doesn’t have an at-will contract, you know, then we’ve got to pull out all sorts of stops. At the end of the day, Jordan, sometimes the situation is so toxic, the mental status of the veterinarian is so dire, I say, “get in your car and drive off. We’ll clean up the legal mess on the backside. It’s not going to be pretty, but it’s much better than the mental status that you know that you’re in right now”.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, and you know, I will link to it as the other, as well as the other things that we’re discussing during this episode and the episode notes as always, but the VIN Foundation does have a free model employment contract that our General Counsel did create that is helpful for employers and employees, and I’d be remiss not to at least mention that it is there for reference to help you as you’re looking at going into a employment situation, as well as potentially renegotiating. So yeah, that, okay, pretty much, we pretty much want at-will, we don’t want to discuss the not at-will.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Precisely, it’s a bad situation. It really is. Yeah.
Jordan Benshea: Okay.
Resources for Contract Negotiation
Jordan Benshea: So what resources are available for colleagues that are looking to learn more about contract negotiation? Besides this podcast, we’ll put some links into the episode notes, but where would you suggest colleagues go that want more information?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, so over, thanks for asking, over at drip.vet, we have an entire negotiation course. It’s free for students, and so you just go to drip.vet, go through to the CE catalog. It’s called The Art and Science of Negotiation, it’s about an hour and a half video course. It’s presented at a lot of veterinary schools across the country if you enter the coupon code, “student”, doesn’t matter on the case, you know, lowercase, uppercase, if you enter the coupon code “student”, then students can basically sign up and take that course for free.
Jordan Benshea: Wonderful. We will definitely link to that in the episode notes as well. And our, you know, one thing I’ll just stop and say that I love about the drip courses is that they are for, without playing on the words, they are dripping the information. And so it’s a little bits of information that you’re able to comprehend and understand, and I think you guys do such a great job with that. So thank you for having that resource available.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Appreciate it. That course, the negotiation course, the Art and Science of Negotiation is broken into about six minute videos, and so it’s one of those things where, just like all of our CE, you can, you know, watch it while you’re walking the dog or waiting on a bus or whatever really quickly.
Jordan Benshea: Yeah, that can be very helpful. Are there resources that you wish were available that you’re not seeing anywhere?
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: You know, so that’s a really good question, and it’s kind of a pet peeve, pet project of mine, soapbox of mine, if you will, Jordan, you know.
Addressing the Gender Gap in Veterinary Medicine
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: But I, you know, working in this field and working with hundreds, if not 1000s of veterinarians at this point, you know, in talking about negotiation, I think that we would be doing a pretty massive injustice to not talk about the gender gap. And so the gender gap is something that does exist in veterinary medicine. It’s been well documented in veterinary medicine, and quite honestly, the vast majority of my clients were women and I would be basically doing them a disservice by not understanding as much as I can about the gender gap, about the way that women negotiate, the way that men negotiate. If we weren’t talking about that today, I think we’d be doing everyone a disservice. But to that point, you asked about resources. I would love to see more pay transparency in veterinary medicine. I would love to see more open source information about what veterinary salaries are. As someone that works on the inside, you know, when people send contracts, or would send me contracts, I would see very different contracts, even at the same practice in the same town from the same group practice, and, you know, I know that’s wrong. There’s something inherently wrong about that. So, you know, I’m basically calling on, you know, executives at group practices, owners, leaders within the profession, you know, to basically to make a commitment to pay equally and to pay fairly. And I think one of the ways to do that is through a resource that says, “This is what pay transparency looks like”.
Jordan Benshea: I like that. I think that’s a really good point, and that’s, and thank you for bringing that up. I, you know, I didn’t think of it as we were talking about contracts, that we would also talk, but I think that it’s, they’re so tightly aligned that you absolutely have to talk about both of them. Any other information you want to leave our audience with today.
Encouraging Negotiation Confidence
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, so one of the things that often comes up is, you know, is the number of people that are negotiating, and the science, the studies actually tell us that only about 15% of people are actually going to negotiate their contract, which, wow, it’s really telling. Now employers know that as well, and if they know that 85% of the people are just going to sign the contract, you know, that hits the table and just be glad to get a job, they’re going to offer low right? And so it’s phenomenal that salaries are coming up, but they’re still not coming up to where they can be. When I see someone know what to ask for, and ask for it correctly, I’ll see swings of 15, 20, $30,000 regularly. Jordan, I mean, very, very common. Just ask for it.
Jordan Benshea: Wow! That’s real money Lance.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: It’s a lot of money. It’s a lot of money, and it’s just a function of being able to develop the confidence just to make the ask. That’s really the step that we have to take to get from point A to point B. So I guess as a leading comment, you know, my comment would be really, know your worth to the practice, know what you could and can and will produce for that practice, and be able to confidently ask for it. That piece in itself, is a lot easier said than done, you know, to go ahead and ask for more compensation. And through the course, and hopefully through other conversations like this, we can talk to people about how to ask for, what to ask for, you know, what sentences to say and things like that, but at the end of the day, it’s really about knowing your worth and being confident enough to begin that ask.
Jordan Benshea: That’s a great point.
Outro
Jordan Benshea: Thank you so much, and you know, I do like to ask this question at the end of some of our episodes, and I don’t think we’ve had just you on yet, so I haven’t been able to ask you, but do you have a secret talent or something that you enjoy doing that others might not know about? We get the most random answers that I never thought would come, so I might be sitting here thinking, I know what yours is going to be, and then it’ll be something totally different.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, this is really a, I really appreciate that question. It really gave me a pause, you know. So I’m actually coaching an 11 and 12 year old baseball team right now, and…
Jordan Benshea: There you go. Wasn’t expecting that.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Yeah, and the learnings that I’m taking away from that are just
Jordan Benshea: Negotiation
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Monumental. And also, to, it’s just a tremendous amount of fun, you know. Working with these kids, watching them develop, and basically honing my negotiation skills and in a lot of its communication skills on how to, you know, how to communicate with an 11 and 12 year old boy, and actually get it to go in. So I think I’m developing a secret talent, Jordan. I think I might have a career as a little league baseball coach in the future.
Jordan Benshea: There you go. So if this veterinarian and attorney thing doesn’t work out, then you’re all set up. You’re good.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: For the high paying, high stakes world of 10 year old base, 10, 11, 12 year old baseball.
Jordan Benshea: Hey, that’s a pretty serious world. I know how serious that can get. Yeah, I have some friends that dedicate their lives to that, so. Well, thanks so much Lance for being here. I really appreciate you always taking the time to help our audience and listen and provide you know your very helpful information and expertise and advice. So thank you so much. I’m sure that we’ll have you on the podcast again soon. Thank you.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: I appreciate it. I mean, my goal and my life, my career for that, you know, my goal in my career is to make sure that veterinarians are happy in their jobs, that are well compensated in their jobs, and get the benefits that they deserve. I mean, that’s what I basically dedicated my career to.
Jordan Benshea: Well, I know that there are many colleagues that are very grateful for that. I’m grateful for the time and effort that you put towards colleagues and all of your advice and help. And so seeing you firsthand, just even a few weeks ago at SAVMA, when somebody said that they were going to take one approach, and you pretty much threw everything down and said, “no, wait, we need to have this conversation”, it’s clear that it’s a passion of yours. So thank you so much for all that you’re doing.
Lance Roasa, DVM, MS, JD: Thank you, Jordan.
Jordan Benshea: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Veterinary Pulse. Please check the episode notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe, and share a review. We welcome feedback, and hope you will tune in again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, VINFoundation.org, and our social media channels. Thank you for being here. Be well.